The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Earth magic responsible for weapons skill?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---It is related to earth. If his discipline is 4 and his weapons is 5, he wouldn’t get the bonus to weapons. If his earth specialty pushes his earth control over 5, he gets a +1 to weapons.
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And if his discipline is 5 and his weapons is 4, it's got nothing to do with earth magic.
What do you think of my suggestion of adding his earth magic power bonus to his weapons score?
--- Quote ---As far as fluff goes, it doesn’t matter. So instead of it being his manipulation of metal, his specialty has honed his instincts. Mechanically, it is still his earth magic that compliments his weapons skill.
But if it’s just honed instincts, shouldn’t it affect more than just weapons? Like dodging and alertness?
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When I wrote up an earlier version of the power upthread, I added an upgrade to address this. You could throw alertness in there as well.
--- Quote ---It sounds more like an aspect to me.
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Everything could be an aspect. I could just have a "wizard" aspect and not buy evocation. But there's a reason that wizards don't do that.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 22, 2019, 03:44:20 PM ---A normal wizard might have to choose between whether to use his stress boxes to attack or defend -- with this stunt, they're free to put up an enormous Block against all attacks, then attack at their leisure for free.
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Potentially worrisome. Still think it's worse than just throwing nukes though. Especially when you take enchanted items into account.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 22, 2019, 08:14:15 PM ---I realize that you'll probably just think that this makes the power more problematic, but you really should be able to use this power for defense and maneuvers when appropriate, not just attack.
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Okay, that makes it worse. I don't think that's a good idea.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 22, 2019, 03:44:20 PM ---That was kind of my point. If Breath Weapon is the game's model for a "free" magic attack, this proposed stunt blows it out of the water.
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It's not the game's model for a free magic attack at all. It's the game's model for an unarmed armed attack. And this requires more arms than anything else; it combines weapon reliance with focus reliance.
And of course, Breath Weapon is already a very questionable way to spend your Refresh, optimization-wise.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 22, 2019, 03:44:20 PM ---But the majority of the time, the players are going to have them, while other stunts that add +1 to attack or +2 to stress tend to have more narrow applications than just, "Have the weapon you're probably going to have most of the time."
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I think it's totally appropriate for combat stunts in general to apply "probably most of the time". If a player takes a stunt that gives them +2 stress against black court vampires and their minions, in a game that's about hunting black court vampires, or a player takes Target-Rich Environment in a solo game, I think that's totally working as intended.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on May 22, 2019, 03:44:20 PM ---That's right, you don't -- thing is, there's a problem when a 6-refresh Pure Mortal is able to trounce monsters that, in canon, give full-fledged-wizard Harry consistent trouble.
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I actually think it's good that Harry punches below his weight. He starts at Submerged and rises fast; him being comparatively bad at fighting means we can realistically have Harry-like stories at the normal power levels.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 22, 2019, 08:14:15 PM ---I thought that if you rolled a 10 or whatever for your attack, that was the value your target had to beat to avoid the attack. In this case, wouldn't that be conviction + power?
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You roll Discipline + control to control / aim spells. Conviction + power is used to draw the shifts of power that fuel the spell.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 22, 2019, 08:14:15 PM ---Actually, would allowing stunt bonuses to stack help to fix the problem of wizards being so much better at combat than other characters?
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It's an open question whether wizards even need nerfing. If they do, though, I don't think that's a good way to address it. A game where the swordsman has five semi-overlapping +1-to-hit stunts seems like a pain in the neck.
If you want a quick and easy Wizard nerf, say that enchanted item blocks require an action to activate.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 22, 2019, 08:14:15 PM ---Because it doesn't replicate what I'm trying to replicate. I had considered designing this power to allow wizards to add their earth power bonus to their weapons/fists skill, but the original point of posting this was to resolve the problem of "making wizards have high weapons/fists skills is unoptimized" while still allowing Morgan-type characters to run around with swords and stuff.
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I don't think this is a question of replicating anything. It's a question of rebalancing the game. Morgan is already represented very cleanly by the rules, he's just not spending his skill points efficiently.
With that in mind, I don't think adding a custom Power to the game is likely to be a good solution to your problem.
One idea I've toyed with: compress Discipline and Conviction into Will. Instead of using Discipline + Conviction, spells use Will + the skill you'd normally use. So you'd use a combat skill to use combat spells, Investigation to use divination magic, and so on. Would make it almost inevitable for fight wizards to be great swordsmen / martial artists / whatever.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark link=topic=53098.msg2319233#msg2319233 date=1558560410[b ---What do you think of my suggestion of adding his earth magic power bonus to his weapons score?[/b]
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I think that's a very bad idea. Would make it trivial to get a Weapons skill that's absolutely unattainable for anyone who isn't a spellcaster.
g33k:
--- Quote from: Sanctaphrax on May 22, 2019, 09:39:34 PM --- ...
I think that's a very bad idea. Would make it trivial to get a Weapons skill that's absolutely unattainable for anyone who isn't a spellcaster.
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Agreed. Murphy should be dangerous with a katana (or a P90) in-hand; even if it's not one of the Swords of the Cross, Murphy should be a credible threat to ordinary Vamps (whether Ramp/Blamp/Whamp), and even to Master-caliber Vamps if they don't take her seriously, if they try to take her with mere combat. Not the obvious winner -- she's still an underdog vs. an Ortega or a Mavra or a Lara -- but a credible threat.
Spellcasters shouldn't be able to out-do ANY/EVERY mortal within their own specialty, which is what this represents. I mean, this SPECIFICALLY represents a spellcaster out-performing a master swordsman; but once we establish the principle, it applies equally to the master of any other skill or craft.
A spellcaster should be able to BEAT the master swordsman, sure... but with Fuego, or Ventas Servitas, or what-have-you; not by grabbing a blade and out-fencing the mortal; at least not by so much that they make it look like a no-contest match! They shouldn't be able to out-bookkeep a top-tier CPA. They shouldn't be able to out-shoot a specialist sniper, etc. Out-perform them, in various ways, with magic? Absolutely.
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That said... Morgan was reportedly a SERIOUS badass with a blade. So that should be represented SOMEHOW ... But I think Murphy with a katana would take him, if his blade were not magical...
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---You roll Discipline + control to control / aim spells. Conviction + power is used to draw the shifts of power that fuel the spell.
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But this isn't standard spellcasting; it's the easy evocations power, you can just use it with your fists or with a weapon.
--- Quote ---One idea I've toyed with: compress Discipline and Conviction into Will. Instead of using Discipline + Conviction, spells use Will + the skill you'd normally use. So you'd use a combat skill to use combat spells, Investigation to use divination magic, and so on. Would make it almost inevitable for fight wizards to be great swordsmen / martial artists / whatever.
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Could you elaborate? This sounds really interesting!
--- Quote ---I think that's a very bad idea. Would make it trivial to get a Weapons skill that's absolutely unattainable for anyone who isn't a spellcaster.
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--- Quote ---Agreed. Murphy should be dangerous with a katana (or a P90) in-hand; even if it's not one of the Swords of the Cross, Murphy should be a credible threat to ordinary Vamps (whether Ramp/Blamp/Whamp), and even to Master-caliber Vamps if they don't take her seriously, if they try to take her with mere combat. Not the obvious winner -- she's still an underdog vs. an Ortega or a Mavra or a Lara -- but a credible threat.
Spellcasters shouldn't be able to out-do ANY/EVERY mortal within their own specialty, which is what this represents. I mean, this SPECIFICALLY represents a spellcaster out-performing a master swordsman; but once we establish the principle, it applies equally to the master of any other skill or craft.
A spellcaster should be able to BEAT the master swordsman, sure... but with Fuego, or Ventas Servitas, or what-have-you; not by grabbing a blade and out-fencing the mortal; at least not by so much that they make it look like a no-contest match! They shouldn't be able to out-bookkeep a top-tier CPA. They shouldn't be able to out-shoot a specialist sniper, etc. Out-perform them, in various ways, with magic? Absolutely.
===
That said... Morgan was reportedly a SERIOUS badass with a blade. So that should be represented SOMEHOW ...
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...What about adding half the power bonus? I agree with you that I don't want to have wizards outdoing everyone else at everything, but I'm still trying to figure out a way to represent earth magic as looking like really good mundane combat.
Or what if the stunt/power allowed you to make earth magic maneuvers related to combat as a supplemental action without the usual supplemental action and without taking stress?
--- Quote ---But I think Murphy with a katana would take him, if his blade were not magical...
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Well, not Murphy. We have WoJ that Murphy doesn't really do much with swords on a regular basis, although she knows how to wield them from martial arts training. She's more a fists and guns type of person.
Shiro should be able to beat Morgan definitely, though. Maybe Michael, too, although Morgan has had a century of practice...
Taran:
Before we dive too far into homebrew, let's refocus the question: You want a good representation of Morgan.
So, then, we must ask: How good of a swordman is Morgan when you consider his 'honed instincts' derived from his earth magic ?
Shiro is listed at Fantastic which, according to the ladder is:
--- Quote ---Š Fantastic (+6) and above skirt the boundaries of natural human capacity.
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He's +7 to block. But he's supposed to be the best swordman alive(RIP Shiro)
So, maybe you put Morgan at +4 or +5 (Great or Superb)
--- Quote ---Š Great (+4) and Superb (+5) indicate veteran or masterful capacity, or the combination of extreme talent and good training.
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So the question is this: How good a swordsman is Morgan without his magic? With his buffed instincts, If you add specializations, we can quickly add +3 or 4 shifts. Which which puts his 'mortal' skill at +1 or +2.
According to the ladder, a +2 skill is:
--- Quote ---Fair (+2) and Good (+3) indicate journeyman or “professional” capacity, or a nearly inhuman degree of talent.
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If the homebrew stunt/power pushes his skill any higher, then he's only a novice swordsman without his earth magic.
I think he's a very skilled swordsman. Like, +3 to +5. I think 'honed instincts' is going to net you a +1 or 2 max, which puts him on par with Shiro.(and I feel that's generous) So, if it was me making the stunt or power, I'd keep that range in mind.
If you want to add more, then Morgan is either a very poor swordsman who relies entirely on his magic for his skill or he's an expert/proffessional swordsman whose supernatural ability makes him better than Shiro.
Whatever you decide, your stunt or power should reflect that.
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