The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Role of Murphy going forward

<< < (3/9) > >>

peregrine:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 09, 2019, 03:34:04 AM ---...Harry is a feeble talent? Elaine? Luccio? Ramirez? Of all the people I listed, only Elaine is not known to be a wizard-level talent, and I'd gotten the impression that Ramirez, at least, suspected by this point that she was faking.

--- End quote ---
Harry, Luccio, and Ramirez aren't part of the Paranet.  They may work with it, but the Paranet is basically the JV version of the White Council.

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---There's a big difference between combat ability and connections and organization. Murphy is one of a handful of characters who has experience leading a complex organization.
--- End quote ---

Along with Luccio.


--- Quote --- Dresden states outright that she's seen more action than most Wardens had before the war. She's smart.
--- End quote ---

But given that the war has been going on for a decade or so at this point, that's no longer relevant. And I hope you're not claiming that she's the only smart person involved with the Paranet/White Council.


--- Quote ---And, most importantly, Elaine, Luccio, Ramirez, and most of the White Council are busy managing the White Council and the Fomor incursion.
--- End quote ---

Elaine is working with the Paranet (in fact, she's leading it) and Ramirez is explicitly coordinating with the Paranet. And while we don't know what Luccio is doing, last we heard she was explicitly advocating that the White Council should use the Paranet as a resource for dealing with problems.


--- Quote ---Elaine is helping with the Paranet, but she's actively combating supernatural threats. She's a weapon; she doesn't have time to handle the bureaucratic stuff that comes with running an organization.
--- End quote ---

No. Elaine is essentially the Paranet's directer/CEO. We have WoJ on this.


--- Quote ---What we see from Murphy in Ghost Story is, indeed, her running the meeting for the Chicago Alliance. But she's rattling off orders, and everyone there is following them. And, for the most part, they're competent directions, from what we can see. She's negotiating, making deals, issuing threats, and basically holding onto Chicago mostly through stubbornness and a whole lot of preventative planning.
--- End quote ---

Yes. Because she is in charge of the Chicago Alliance. She is not in charge of the Paranet or any portion of the White Council. And she's good at it (probably. Chicago seems to be in a whole lot of trouble currently, but there's no evidence anyone could do better with the resources available, so...). That doesn't give her any sort of standing to convince the White Council of anything, since they don't seem to care about Chicago enough to replace the Warden that's supposed to be there.


--- Quote ---Finally, what makes you think the Paranet is going to trust the White Council?
--- End quote ---

The part where it is the job of whoever is convincing them to work with the White Council to overcome this? Seriously, this is implied by the question under debate: "Who will convince the Paranet and White Council to work together? Murphy or [people I listed]?" If the Paranet doesn't trust the White Council, then the premise is invalid.


--- Quote ---The same White Council that's been ignoring the hell out of them while they're getting snatched off the streets in broad daylight?
--- End quote ---

Ramirez has explicitly been working with them, and I'd be shocked if the younger wardens under his command, as well as the wardens that used to be under Harry's command weren't doing the same.


--- Quote ---Luccio would NEVER be trusted by most in the Paranet. You've already seen how most of the lesser talents reacted to Harry in White Night.
--- End quote ---

And Harry came up with the Paranet partially as a way to counter that.


--- Quote --- Imagine a Warden (or most wizards, I'd imagine) they didn't already know trying to organize them. They'd be met with distrust instantly.
--- End quote ---

You, mean, the way Harry already organized them into the Paranet? They don't need more organizing, they need to start coordinating with the White Council as an organization, rather than just individual members.


--- Quote ---Murphy's a great choice to manage the Paranet. She's got the experience and the knowledge to lead an organization like that.
--- End quote ---

A few points here:

1) Murphy may in fact have the skills necessary to manage a continent-spanning organization like the Paranet, but she doesn't have experience in doing so. The biggest thing she organized before Ghost Story was a police department. And during Ghost Story, we saw her managing a city-wide organization, and having problems due to trust issues on both sides. Admittedly, a lot of the problems were due to Murphy's personal issues, but it's not a ringing endorsement.

2) Murphy does not have the skills or the connections to deal with the White Council, which is kind of necessary when the original claim was that Murphy would "take the lead in integrating the Paranet efforts with that of the White Council."


--- Quote ---Most importantly, I think the members would actually trust her judgment, for the most part, because she has demonstrated that she actually gives a damn about them at every opportunity.
--- End quote ---

...That's nice. So has Harry. And have most of the members even heard of Murphy? She's pretty Chicago-focussed.


--- Quote ---Harry, Luccio, and Ramirez aren't part of the Paranet.  They may work with it, but the Paranet is basically the JV version of the White Council.
--- End quote ---

Harry is a founding member of the Paranet--the whole thing was his idea.

And Murphy is neither a member of the Paranet nor a member of the White Council, so she is twice as unqualified to integrate the two.

-----------------------

Look, practically speaking, to integrate the Paranet and the White Council, you need:

1) Someone who's high-level in the Paranet to agree and help convince other members.

2) Someone who's high-level in the White Council to agree and convince other members.

3) Evidence that it benefits the Paranet.

4) Evidence it benefits the White Council.

5) Someone to coordinate all these things, and make sure the Paranet and the White Council are talking to each other.

I think that Harry is the best suited to be the person from point 5. He has an in with Elaine, who can fulfill point 1, as well as helping with that himself. He has an in with Luccio, who can fulfill point 2, as well as helping with that himself when it comes to younger wardens (or getting Ramirez to help with that part). He and Ramirez (who is involved because of Harry) both fulfill points 3 and 4.

Now let's look at Murphy. She may qualify for point 1, even if she's not actually a member of the Paranet. However, she distrusts the White Council, so I'm not sure why she would be the one to convince the Paranet to trust them. She cannot fulfill point 2. Her only way of fulfilling points 3 or 4 is through Harry, or through Ramirez due to Harry.

Murphy's qualified for a lot of things: She seems to have good organizational skills, and can successfully coordinate different factions. But she doesn't have the resources she would need to integrate these two factions.

dspringer1:
Totally agree that the Paranet needs champions within the White Council - Rameriz, Lucio, and Harry fill that role.

However, what we are talking about is the Paranet's own internal leadership - aka who works with that champion.   In that sense, I think Murphy has to be one of their top 3 leaders, if not their defacto leader today.   Elaine would also be one of those leaders, but she lacks the contacts Murphy has.  Elaine's power would be an asset, but she is actively hiding that power so it will probably not end up being decisive leadership wise in the short run. 

The Paranet was forced to organize and develop some form of national structure in response to the Formor.   Based on actions in Ghost Story, Murphy was being briefed on Paranet crises across the nation, and coordinating national Paranet responses to those crises.  She is likely known to all the local paranet leaders and seen as the go-to person to get help.  She was also the person who represented paranet interests with both Marcone (chicago specific mostly) and the White court (national) and the knights of the cross (worldwide). 

Also keep in mind, Murphy has PERSONAL and RESPECTED relationships with all the key White council members (Harry, Lucio, Ramerez), knows Elaine, Lara Raithe, Marcone, both the Knights of the Cross and the Winter Lady.  Who else in the Paranet has this level of high level contacts in the supernatural world. 

Now you could argue that the White Council should provide that leadership, but the fact is that they do not want to do this and probably would not do a good job because of that fact.   The paranet is much more likely to end up formal White Council ally rather than a subset of the Council itself.  That might change over time, but ally is the best they can hope for in the next few years. 

Do not get me wrong.  Paranet will always be a mostly decentralized local organization and each community will have their own local leaders.  Leading the Paranet will be like herding kittens.  But the fact is clear that the Paranet needs a national leadership an (based on the books), Murphy is probably the best candidate for that role. 

KurtinStGeorge:
Assuming that Murphy doesn't die in Peace Talks, the problem in Mirror Mirror is Harry gets pulled into Alt-Harry's reality.  Alt-Harry starts going down the wrong path after a decision he makes in Grave Peril.  Remember the scene in Summer Knight when Harry finally let Murphy in on his world and gives her the inside dirt on how the White Council was trying to sell him out to the vampires?  That might never happen in the Alt-Harry universe.  We don't even know if Murphy fully comes back the psychic mauling she received in Grave Peril in Alt-Harry's reality.  It's possible that even if Murphy wasn't broken by that experience, the trust and friendship that started to be rebuilt in Summer Knight never happened at all.  In Alt-Harry land Murphy might still be working for the Chicago PD and she will probably think of Alt-Harry, and therefore our Harry, as a big time bad guy.  I won't be surprised if the first time Murphy sees Harry in Mirror Mirror she draws a gun on him.

I'm not sure what Harry could learn about Alt-Murphy that would help him with the Murphy he knows, though I suppose Jim might think of something.  More to the point, I doubt that whatever happens to Alt-Murphy in Mirror Mirror will be much of an indicator of where the main universe character will go in future books.

Seeing as Peace Talks takes place several months the events in Skin Game I expect Murphy will probably be doing a lot of PT in order to heal to the degree that she can.  I don't see her as being more than a sounding board for Harry in Peace Talks.  I assume Harry will talk to Murphy because it would be weird if he didn't, but we may not get a really good indicator of where her character will go in future books.  What might happen is we will hear Murphy wondering what her future role should be, perhaps hinting at a couple of possibilities.     

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---However, what we are talking about is the Paranet's own internal leadership - aka who works with that champion.
--- End quote ---

Elaine.


--- Quote --- In that sense, I think Murphy has to be one of their top 3 leaders, if not their defacto leader today.
--- End quote ---

I did not get that sense at all. I got the sense that Murphy was the go-to person for organizing Chicago's defenses, and that a certain amount of big-picture information got shared as a result of that, but it honestly never occurred to me that Murphy could be in charge of more than that.

Could you please provide quotes that support your position? I'd re-read the relevant scenes myself, but I don't have access to my books right now.


--- Quote ---Elaine would also be one of those leaders, but she lacks the contacts Murphy has.
--- End quote ---

What contacts outside of Chicago does Murphy have that Elaine doesn't? (I'm not counting any contact that Elaine technically doesn't have but whom Harry can easily put her in touch with--Murphy got the majority of her supernatural contacts by doing exactly that.)


--- Quote ---Elaine's power would be an asset, but she is actively hiding that power so it will probably not end up being decisive leadership wise in the short run. 
--- End quote ---

Um. How to put this... The Paranet is an organization based around supporting a specific group of people, namely magic-users who are not a part of the White Council. Elaine is a member of this group. Murphy is not. I see no universe where this does not matter. Murphy may be able to do the job despite this, but I don't see why she would be chosen over Elaine. It's like if a women's rights organization appointed a man to be in charge even though there's a woman who's just as competent.

Her magical strength may also help with convincing the White Council to respect her, but you are right that she is hiding it, so it is less likely to come into play directly. (Indirectly, it lets her accomplish things that would benefit the White Council, and they can see what she accomplishes.)


--- Quote ---The Paranet was forced to organize and develop some form of national structure in response to the Formor.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ---Now you could argue that the White Council should provide that leadership, but the fact is that they do not want to do this and probably would not do a good job because of that fact.   The paranet is much more likely to end up formal White Council ally rather than a subset of the Council itself.  That might change over time, but ally is the best they can hope for in the next few years. 

Do not get me wrong.  Paranet will always be a mostly decentralized local organization and each community will have their own local leaders.  Leading the Paranet will be like herding kittens.  But the fact is clear that the Paranet needs a national leadership an (based on the books), Murphy is probably the best candidate for that role. 
--- End quote ---

Okay. I'm seeing what the problem is now. You and I just have really different conceptions of what the Paranet is. I believe that the Paranet has been a national organization from its conception, and that, in fact, coordinating local groups to deal with more wide-spread issues was the reason it was formed. I believe this based on Harry's explanation to Elaine in White Night when he told her he wanted to form it--that it was to deal with problems like the attempted genocide of low-level magic users, which had taken so long to stop precisely because the only organized groups of low-level magic users were local, rather than national (or international).

Because of this, and because of the fact that we have a WoJ that Elaine is the Paranet's CEO, I believe that Elaine is already filling the role that you want Murphy to fill. As such, what I perceive you saying is "Elaine is completely incompetent and must be replaced immediately by Murphy, who is just so much better that she can single-handedly accomplish in months what several other people, who have far more resources and advantages when it comes to solving this issue, have been attempting to do for years." I object to this. It makes several characters incompetent for no good reason, and butchers their characterization in doing so.

However, it is now apparent that you are not saying this--you're just arguing from a different (wrong) premise. If the Paranet had never been formed, and low-level magic users were still at the level of organization that we saw in White Night (mostly local groups, some communication between them but it's sporadic and unreliable) then I would agree that Murphy would be a good person to organize them. The Murphy we see in Ghost Story and Cold Days would be a very good person to organize something like the Paranet, only with more vanilla mortals in it as well. The problem is, the Paranet has already been formed, and already does the things you thing that Murphy would organize it to do.


--- Quote ---Based on actions in Ghost Story, Murphy was being briefed on Paranet crises across the nation, and coordinating national Paranet responses to those crises.
--- End quote ---

I agree that she was informed of crisises across the nation, but I don't recall her organizing national responses. I had thought that it was the same kind of thing as Harry being briefed about warlocks in Australia--not his area of jurisdiction, but he's a local leader, so he gets information about the more dangerous threats.


--- Quote ---She is likely known to all the local paranet leaders and seen as the go-to person to get help.
--- End quote ---

Oh, definitely. She's definitely the local go-to person--I just don't see her as being anything more.


--- Quote --- She was also the person who represented paranet interests with both Marcone (chicago specific mostly)
--- End quote ---

Yes.


--- Quote ---and the White court (national)
--- End quote ---

Only because Harry was dead. Her only links to the White Council are through Harry.


--- Quote ---and the knights of the cross (worldwide). 
--- End quote ---

Since when? I see no evidence of her having contact with Sanya, and she specifically isn't the point of contact for the Church, because it's explicitly noted that St. Mary's is a good place to send people to keep them safe from Murphy when she's getting too overzealous about killing kids who were essentially brainwashed.

And she's not acting as a Knight, either: she's not picking up the Sword, or giving either of the Swords to others, and she is explicitly acting against the values of the Knights with the whole Fitz thing.


--- Quote ---Also keep in mind, Murphy has PERSONAL and RESPECTED relationships with all the key White council members (Harry, Lucio, Ramerez), knows Elaine, Lara Raithe, Marcone, both the Knights of the Cross and the Winter Lady.  Who else in the Paranet has this level of high level contacts in the supernatural world.
--- End quote ---

Harry. Who is not explicitly part of the Paranet, but is, as its co-founder, closer than Murphy. Most of these contacts, in fact, Murphy only got in the first place because of Harry. Furthermore, I have seen no evidence that Murphy has a personal relationship with either Luccio or Lara Raith; and her relationship with Molly seemed to be fairly adversarial even before the Winter Lady thing.

--------------------------------------

To be clear: I don't think any one person can integrate the Paranet and the White Council on their own, and I feel that if someone did, it would undermine the efforts of all the people who have been trying for years.

Furthermore, I believe the people who have been trying for years to integrate the two should and will be the ones with the most pivotal role in succeeding, rather than having someone completely new come in and solve the problem easily.

Those people who I view as having been working on the problem most already are, in order of most work done: Harry, Elaine and Luccio, and Ramirez.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page