The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 28, 2019, 01:51:57 AM ---The difference between Michael's suspicion, Murphy's suspicion, and Butters' suspicion is this:
-Michael's suspicion is based on good logic and the facts at his disposal. The actions he takes were such that they reduce the chances both of his suspicions coming to pass and of other harm being done. When he has a way to gain more evidence, he employs it, and when a flaw in his logic is made clear to him, he accepts it and changes his position.
-Murphy's suspicion, to me at least, appears as though it may not even exist. Her actions do not reflect consistency, and do appear manipulative. Given this, her reasoning for being suspicious is undermined by her actions. In fact, her actions make it more likely that her suspicions, if indeed they exist, will come true, and further cause clear harm.
-Butters' suspicion is based on faulty logic. He does not attempt to gain more evidence even when it would be simple for him to do so, and in fact ignores evidence that he does have because it contradicts his conclusions. When someone attempts to speak to him about problems with his beliefs and with actions that may arise from them, he disregards their arguments. His actions are such that they both make it more likely that his suspicions will come to pass and also cause more harm.
--- End quote ---
How so?
I agree with you on Michael, but I don't see any difference when it comes to Murphy and Butters.
How does Murphy being maniuplative?
How does Butters ignore evidence and facts?
From Murphy's PoV., someone who looks like Harry burgle Butters's home to take Bob away. Since no one could possibly return from the dead, any rational person would have assume this person to be an imposter and has malicious intent. Even if this person is truely Harry, if we apply the previous logic that no one who become the winter knight could stay uncorrupted, it is about 99,99% chance that Harry is now turn darkside. He did stole away Bob after all and injured Andy in the process.
I don't know about you, but to me Murphy's reaction during her first meeting with Harry in book 14 is already far too lenient. Far too soft. Under such a dubious circumstance , it is only logical to isolate Harry and do damage control. Making sure that Harry return Bob back and insure that Harry could not touch the Holy swords is a measure of damage control to ensure that in case Harry is indeed an imposter or corrupted, no further damage could be done. In Murphy's place, I wold have done the same, or maybe worse. Especially since this person is someone I really care about which imply that my judgement may be compromise. Take the stance of better safe than sorry is a logical choice. How could it become manipulative?
Same with Butters. What facts does he has? and who does Butters been getting his facts and information from? It is from Bob, and Bob don't have anything good to say about winter in general and Mab especially. Bob knows too much and it works against Butters this time. He don't know about the parasite and when Harry told Butters about in book 15, it is already too late and sounds too much like an excuse. Look at it from Butters's point of view. Harry return in book 14 and after he does winter's business, he isolate himself at the island to do who knows what. He does not communicate, he does not reach out to his previous friends and family. A year later, he comes back to Chicago, again to do winter's business again and on top of that he is working with freaking Nicodemous and the denarians. Expecting Butters to trust Harry under the circumstances is asking a bit too much. In fact, Murphy's trust in Harry during book 15 already show that Murphyis compromise when it comes too Harry. Love has blinded her judgement or she wouldn't extend so much trust. In fact, what Murphy show in book 15 can no longer be consider trust. It is already cross the line into devotion. As she promise at the end of book 14, if Harry is going to hell, she'll follow.
Of course, once evidence in the contrary is revealed, Butters admits his mistake, but it is the same for everyone even Michael needs confirmation. In book 10, once Harry confronted Michael, Michael can only trust Harry again once he ask the question: "where is your blasting rod?"
All of Harry's explanation only leads to that question. Even Michael is not willing to extend blind faith and trust when the stakes is so high.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---From Murphy's PoV., someone who looks like Harry burgle Butters's home to take Bob away. Since no one could possibly return from the dead, any rational person would have assume this person to be an imposter and has malicious intent. Even if this person is truely Harry, if we apply the previous logic that no one who become the winter knight could stay uncorrupted, it is about 99,99% chance that Harry is now turn darkside. He did stole away Bob after all and injured Andy in the process.
I don't know about you, but to me Murphy's reaction during her first meeting with Harry in book 14 is already far too lenient. Far too soft. Under such a dubious circumstance , it is only logical to isolate Harry and do damage control. Making sure that Harry return Bob back and insure that Harry could not touch the Holy swords is a measure of damage control to ensure that in case Harry is indeed an imposter or corrupted, no further damage could be done. In Murphy's place, I wold have done the same, or maybe worse. Especially since this person is someone I really care about which imply that my judgement may be compromise. Take the stance of better safe than sorry is a logical choice. How could it become manipulative?
--- End quote ---
I have two issues with Murphy's behavior in Cold Days. The first is specific: Why did Murphy bring up the Swords at all, much less in the manner that she did? Harry wasn't asking about them; he wasn't trying to get them back; and if he decided to break in and steal them like he did with Bob, he couldn't because he doesn't know where they are. And yet Murphy, out of the blue, demands that Harry acknowledge them as not his responsibility. More than that, she doesn't say, "Oh, just to update you, I've been keeping the Swords safe, and I'm going to continue doing that, okay?" Instead, she is deliberately confrontational, and the result of that is that it first pushes Harry to lose control a little, and then to feel so guilty that not only does he agree to all of Murphy's demands, but he feels even more convinced that he's a monster. Now why would Murphy do that? Either she doesn't know Harry well enough to realize what would happen (even though it seems pretty obvious to me) or she wanted that reaction, which strikes me as manipulative.
The second issue is more general: the way that Murphy keeps wavering between trusting him and not doesn't feel natural to me. First she's absolutely convinced that Harry's back because she hears about explosions (even though in Ghost Story she was very justifiably concerned about imposters) and so convinced that Harry's still himself that she jumps into a fight on his behalf without even asking what's going on. She remains perfectly convinced that Harry's still a good guy up until her manipulation of him discussed in the above paragraph. Then, once she's proven that she can pressure Harry into doing things his way (and once she's undermined his confidence in himself) she's back to trusting him completely...up until she spontaneously decides to tell Harry that he's already become a monster. It just doesn't feel particularly natural to me, and combined with the stuff I talked about in the paragraph above this, it paints a pretty nasty picture of Murphy. And of course, after reading Cold Days and getting this impression of Murphy, it changes how I see things that Murphy's done in other books, further supporting my opinion of her.
--- Quote ---Same with Butters. What facts does he has? and who does Butters been getting his facts and information from? It is from Bob, and Bob don't have anything good to say about winter in general and Mab especially. Bob knows too much and it works against Butters this time. He don't know about the parasite and when Harry told Butters about in book 15, it is already too late and sounds too much like an excuse. Look at it from Butters's point of view. Harry return in book 14 and after he does winter's business, he isolate himself at the island to do who knows what. He does not communicate, he does not reach out to his previous friends and family. A year later, he comes back to Chicago, again to do winter's business again and on top of that he is working with freaking Nicodemous and the denarians. Expecting Butters to trust Harry under the circumstances is asking a bit too much. In fact, Murphy's trust in Harry during book 15 already show that Murphyis compromise when it comes too Harry. Love has blinded her judgement or she wouldn't extend so much trust. In fact, what Murphy show in book 15 can no longer be consider trust. It is already cross the line into devotion. As she promise at the end of book 14, if Harry is going to hell, she'll follow.
--- End quote ---
Well, part of his problem with Harry is that Harry has come back from the dead, and he thinks that Harry must have come back wrong. Clearly he hasn't bothered to talk to Bob about this, because in Ghost Story Bob worked out what had happened to Harry and could have explained it to him. Another part of his problem with Harry is that Harry wasn't there when Chicago had trouble. Clearly he hasn't tried to get any information about why that is, because if he'd tried to get a message to Harry through Thomas or Murphy (both of whom have visited Harry) he would have known what the issue was. Further, he just plain wasn't using logic here, because even though he knew Harry wasn't in town, he somehow thought Harry would just spontaneously know what problems they were having. Another part of Butters' problem with Harry was that he was supposedly acting more faerie-like because the first thing he said to Butters was about a debt--but this is just plain wrong, because the first thing Harry said to Butters was to ask if Andi was all right. Further, his entire problem with Harry rested on him not being sure of who Harry really was anymore, which he could have fixed by asking Harry to soulgaze him--and that would also have been excellent foreshadowing for Butters becoming a Knight, since Michael is the only other character we know of to insist on a soulgaze with Harry to confirm that he was trustworthy.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on May 28, 2019, 03:38:26 AM ---I have two issues with Murphy's behavior in Cold Days. The first is specific: Why did Murphy bring up the Swords at all, much less in the manner that she did? Harry wasn't asking about them; he wasn't trying to get them back; and if he decided to break in and steal them like he did with Bob, he couldn't because he doesn't know where they are. And yet Murphy, out of the blue, demands that Harry acknowledge them as not his responsibility. More than that, she doesn't say, "Oh, just to update you, I've been keeping the Swords safe, and I'm going to continue doing that, okay?" Instead, she is deliberately confrontational, and the result of that is that it first pushes Harry to lose control a little, and then to feel so guilty that not only does he agree to all of Murphy's demands, but he feels even more convinced that he's a monster. Now why would Murphy do that? Either she doesn't know Harry well enough to realize what would happen (even though it seems pretty obvious to me) or she wanted that reaction, which strikes me as manipulative.
The second issue is more general: the way that Murphy keeps wavering between trusting him and not doesn't feel natural to me. First she's absolutely convinced that Harry's back because she hears about explosions (even though in Ghost Story she was very justifiably concerned about imposters) and so convinced that Harry's still himself that she jumps into a fight on his behalf without even asking what's going on. She remains perfectly convinced that Harry's still a good guy up until her manipulation of him discussed in the above paragraph. Then, once she's proven that she can pressure Harry into doing things his way (and once she's undermined his confidence in himself) she's back to trusting him completely...up until she spontaneously decides to tell Harry that he's already become a monster. It just doesn't feel particularly natural to me, and combined with the stuff I talked about in the paragraph above this, it paints a pretty nasty picture of Murphy. And of course, after reading Cold Days and getting this impression of Murphy, it changes how I see things that Murphy's done in other books, further supporting my opinion of her.
Well, part of his problem with Harry is that Harry has come back from the dead, and he thinks that Harry must have come back wrong. Clearly he hasn't bothered to talk to Bob about this, because in Ghost Story Bob worked out what had happened to Harry and could have explained it to him. Another part of his problem with Harry is that Harry wasn't there when Chicago had trouble. Clearly he hasn't tried to get any information about why that is, because if he'd tried to get a message to Harry through Thomas or Murphy (both of whom have visited Harry) he would have known what the issue was. Further, he just plain wasn't using logic here, because even though he knew Harry wasn't in town, he somehow thought Harry would just spontaneously know what problems they were having. Another part of Butters' problem with Harry was that he was supposedly acting more faerie-like because the first thing he said to Butters was about a debt--but this is just plain wrong, because the first thing Harry said to Butters was to ask if Andi was all right. Further, his entire problem with Harry rested on him not being sure of who Harry really was anymore, which he could have fixed by asking Harry to soulgaze him--and that would also have been excellent foreshadowing for Butters becoming a Knight, since Michael is the only other character we know of to insist on a soulgaze with Harry to confirm that he was trustworthy.
--- End quote ---
It is the nature of doubt and suspicion. When there is no suspicion things are easy, but once suspicion sets in things become complicated.
For one thing, though Thomas and Murphy visits Harry in the island, it is clear they don't do it often. My impression both Thomas and Murphy only visits one time each. Though my impression can be wrong, it would not be a mistake to say that neither Murphy or Thomas know much about Harry during that year especially after Mab sabotage Harry's communication. Like what Mab say at the start of book 15, a bit of a push here and there and suspicion could easily breads. In other words, even if Butters did ask Murphy or Thomas about Harry, I doubt any of them could say or do anything to convince him. In Butters place, I wouldn't be convince either.
As for Bob knowing about Harry returning with his entire soul in book 13, well, Harry can be ressurected if his body is found. But the fact of the matter is his body was never found. They dont even know if Harry's body is still intact. To make matters worse, Harry is missing after the battle with corpsetaker. The logical conclusion is Harry's ghost is destroyed during battle. Since Harry come back with his entire soul, it is only reasonable to conclude that Harry is obliderated , spirit and soul. He is deader than dead. He won't have an afterlife let alone come back from the dead.
It is not that Butters wanted Harry know all of their problems even when Harry is at Demonreach, but in Butters point of view, Harry should have innitiated contact himself. Harry is the one who should reach out. As readers, we know Harry can't do that because the parasite in his head, but Butters don't know and suspicion has more than a year to breeds inside Butters's mind fueled by Bob. When book 15 comes along, any explanation is already useless because suspicion already sets too deep. Any explanation sounds like an excuse at that point.
And don't talk about soulgaze. Harry has mentioned again and again that soulgazes are dangerous. The last time Butters soulgaze a wizard, it is freaking Grevane. We can be sure it is far from pleasant. If Harry is truely corrupt, soulgazing Harry may turn out as bad as soulgazing Grevane. Not even Harry dares to soulgaze just anyone. When Nicodemous offers a soulgaze to confirm his sincerity in book 10, Harry flinch away ASAP. In other words, it is catch 22. Without confirming that Harry is still the old Harry, soulgazing Harry is dangerous. But if Harry is already confirm to be good, there is no need to soulgaze anymore.
As for Murphy, I must admit she could have handle things better in book 14, though I prefer to give her some slack.
Murphy swingging from trusting Harry to not trusting Harry to back to trusting Harry again however, that is explanable in my opinion. She herself is probably torn. Like I said, after Harry's assume death at the end of book 12, what Murphy suffers is regret and uncertainty. So her state of mind in book 14 most likely is not stable. Which explain why her actions is rather contrary during book 14. If she trust Harry without confirmation, it will be reckless and irresponsible. It could endanger everyone and probably cause a disaster. If she choose not t trust, what if Harry is really Harry? How would Harry feels? She don't want to hurt him. Without having a confirmation, it is really wrong whichever she choose. Now you see why Murphy waver back and forth like that in book 14.
The old Murphy. The one in book 6 or book 10, would have acted more decisively. She would have assume the worse and just appolagize if she proven wrong afterwards. It is what she did in book 2 after all. It is also the standard M.O. of the police force and probably the standard M.O. that she and the rest of the justice league ennacted to ensure safety during the trouble times after the fall of the red court. People has to cut themself and show they could bleed before being invited into the house for example.
But this is Harry and she loves him. What could she do?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---For one thing, though Thomas and Murphy visits Harry in the island, it is clear they don't do it often. My impression both Thomas and Murphy only visits one time each. Though my impression can be wrong, it would not be a mistake to say that neither Murphy or Thomas know much about Harry during that year especially after Mab sabotage Harry's communication. Like what Mab say at the start of book 15, a bit of a push here and there and suspicion could easily breads. In other words, even if Butters did ask Murphy or Thomas about Harry, I doubt any of them could say or do anything to convince him. In Butters place, I wouldn't be convince either.
--- End quote ---
So your claim here is that Thomas or Murphy did tell Butters about the parasite, and he just didn't care about the consequences to Harry if he left the island? That may make Butters appear less stupid, but it doesn't make him more sympathetic.
And the number of times they visited is irrelevant--for Thomas especially. If Butters wants to get a message to Harry, he needs someone who knows where Harry is and can get to him, and Thomas is, so far as I am aware, the only person Butters knows with a boat. And both Thomas and Murphy know about the parasite because Harry told them at the end of Cold Days.
--- Quote ---As for Bob knowing about Harry returning with his entire soul in book 13, well, Harry can be ressurected if his body is found. But the fact of the matter is his body was never found. They dont even know if Harry's body is still intact. To make matters worse, Harry is missing after the battle with corpsetaker. The logical conclusion is Harry's ghost is destroyed during battle. Since Harry come back with his entire soul, it is only reasonable to conclude that Harry is obliderated , spirit and soul. He is deader than dead. He won't have an afterlife let alone come back from the dead.
--- End quote ---
If this were happening during Cold Days, I'd agree with you, but the fact is, the timing doesn't work out. It goes:
Ghost Story--Bob realizes that Harry's body is probably still alive, and is confident when telling Harry that Harry can get his body back.
Cold Days--Bob meets Harry and confirms that it's definitely him, even if he's still the Winter Knight.
Skin Game--Butters has apparently decided that Harry is not Harry.
You see how that's a problem?
--- Quote ---It is not that Butters wanted Harry know all of their problems even when Harry is at Demonreach, but in Butters point of view, Harry should have innitiated contact himself. Harry is the one who should reach out. As readers, we know Harry can't do that because the parasite in his head, but Butters don't know and suspicion has more than a year to breeds inside Butters's mind fueled by Bob. When book 15 comes along, any explanation is already useless because suspicion already sets too deep. Any explanation sounds like an excuse at that point.
--- End quote ---
Then Butters is an idiot who doesn't bother trying to acquire information. Butters ought to know about the parasite if he were using his head, and he ought to realize that, given Harry is the Winter Knight, he might not be able to reach out.
Now, Harry being the Winter Knight is a good reason for Butters to be suspicious, especially if Butters thinks that Harry is either being deliberately isolated to manipulate him or that he is so much under Mab's control that she can convince him not to reach out to his friends, but I've never claimed that Butters' suspicion was the problem, only his reasons for it.
--- Quote ---And don't talk about soulgaze. Harry has mentioned again and again that soulgazes are dangerous. The last time Butters soulgaze a wizard, it is freaking Grevane. We can be sure it is far from pleasant. If Harry is truely corrupt, soulgazing Harry may turn out as bad as soulgazing Grevane. Not even Harry dares to soulgaze just anyone. When Nicodemous offers a soulgaze to confirm his sincerity in book 10, Harry flinch away ASAP. In other words, it is catch 22. Without confirming that Harry is still the old Harry, soulgazing Harry is dangerous. But if Harry is already confirm to be good, there is no need to soulgaze anymore.
--- End quote ---
Yes, soulgazes are dangerous. But Butters acknowledged himself that telling Harry his suspicions was dangerous, and he did it anyway. And I'm not saying that this is the solution for everyone--but given that Butters is supposed to be the True Wielder of Fiddelachius(TM) and that he's had it explicitly pointed out to him that his suspicion has a good chance of contributing to someone losing their soul, I'm going to say that he particularly doesn't get to use "it's dangerous" as an excuse not to do it.
(As an aside, I always thought that the reason Harry flinched away from soulgazing Nicodemus had more to do with not wanting to deal with the possibility that Nic was telling the truth than it did with soulgazes being dangerous.)
--- Quote ---Murphy swingging from trusting Harry to not trusting Harry to back to trusting Harry again however, that is explanable in my opinion. She herself is probably torn. Like I said, after Harry's assume death at the end of book 12, what Murphy suffers is regret and uncertainty. So her state of mind in book 14 most likely is not stable. Which explain why her actions is rather contrary during book 14. If she trust Harry without confirmation, it will be reckless and irresponsible. It could endanger everyone and probably cause a disaster. If she choose not t trust, what if Harry is really Harry? How would Harry feels? She don't want to hurt him. Without having a confirmation, it is really wrong whichever she choose. Now you see why Murphy waver back and forth like that in book 14.
--- End quote ---
I can understand why she might be wavering. I have a much harder time accepting that she was only wavering when it wouldn't cause actual problems with accomplishing stuff, especially in conjunction with other stuff that I see as manipulative.
huangjimmy108:
You know, at the end of book 14, I think it is reasonable to assume that Butters just expect Harry to return to Chicago after a few days at the island, so he did not ask. I mean, who could think up a psychic parasite that could blow up Harry's head? Besides, even Harry thinks that Molly would have taken the parasite out soon enough. Not even Harry expect to be isolated at the island for the entire year. If this kind of thinking is also the same with Murphy and Thomas, it is also reasonable for Murphy and Thomas not to say anything. Molly is going to cure Harry soon anyway, why say so much?
But Mab keep Molly away, probably on purpose. Days drag into weeks and weeks to months. One mistake leads to another and Butters misunderstanding grow bigger and bigger. Butters forgot to ask while Murphy and Thomas forgot to tell. After a few months, explaining would not work anymore.
On Murphy's side. Her wavering is her dying struggle. It is only her instinctive self defense mechanism at work, which is why it is as harsh as it is transcient. CD is only about 24 hours and Murphy already fully trusted Harry again by the end of it. She wanted Harry back so much, I suspect even if Harry is an imposter or being controlled by Mab, she'll be the first to be fooled, well, as long as Harry don't show any obvious flaw. Which is probably why she need to act harsh at the start, she would not have the heart to be harsh otherwise.
Thomas's first reaction upon meeting Harry is also not very welcoming anyway. Compare to Thomas's first greeting in the water beetle, Murphy harsh opening seems normal. At least Murphy don't suspect Harry as some kind of a shapeshifter.
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