The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why

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huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on June 01, 2019, 02:52:01 PM ---An excuse for what?

Bob knows--he and Harry talk about it during Ghost Story.

"A bit excessive"? It's a clear-cut case of police brutality! It would be bad enough if Murphy did that to someone she didn't know, and that she does it to someone we're supposed to believe she cares about says a lot about her as a person. A suspect is supposed to be arrested, yes, not assaulted when they aren't trying to fight back. And Murphy specifically punches Harry again when he tries to say something, and says "no more talking," so I do not believe she was going to listen to him when they got to the police station--more likely, given her behavior in this scene, she would have just punched him again when he tried to say that he was innocent.

--- End quote ---

An excuse to comfort his own conscience. A self denial of a sort.

As for Murphy, I think it precisely because she and Harry has a close partnership at the time which make Murphy so angry and punch him. You see, Murphy is going out on a limb by involving Harry in the investigations, due to those rumors spread at the end of SF. At the start of the investigation, Murphy has requested that Harry tell her everything and grant her full disclosure and Harry agreed. Though from Harry's PoV we as readers can see that Harry is not really trying to hide anything, from Murphy's PoV it sure look a lot like Harry is doing exactly that. In truth, Harry is indeed hiding a lot of things. Harry has not yet clued Murphy in on the supernatural like he did in book 4. Though Harry has a reason for it, it is undeniable that it is a violation of the full disclosure agreement she and Harry consented at the start of the investigations. In a way, it is a kind of betrayal on Harry's part. This is exactly what ID Harry is saying to Harry when he is unconscious.

Harry has his own reasons to do what he did. Murphy has her own reason to blew her top too. I am not saying that it is right for her to punch Harry. I am just saying that it is not out of character for her to do so. She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.

And of course she is going to listen to Harry. It is due process of the law after all. No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs. 

nadia.skylark:

--- Quote ---If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.
--- End quote ---

I'm confused as to what you are saying here. Are you saying that it was wrong for Harry to steal Bob in the first place regardless of the fact that he returned him, or that returning him didn't count because Murphy pressured him into doing it, or that you don't think Harry returned Bob at all?


--- Quote ---An excuse to comfort his own conscience. A self denial of a sort.
--- End quote ---

...Then why did he do it? He specifically told Andi that she couldn't be seen to help him, even after she found out that he needed Bob and said that he could take him; however, when he ran into Molly and Thomas, he was just fine with both of them helping--to me, this shows that Harry was trying to protect his lower-powered friends by keeping them out of it; he was fine getting help from people who could protect themselves.


--- Quote ---As for Murphy, I think it precisely because she and Harry has a close partnership at the time which make Murphy so angry and punch him. You see, Murphy is going out on a limb by involving Harry in the investigations, due to those rumors spread at the end of SF. At the start of the investigation, Murphy has requested that Harry tell her everything and grant her full disclosure and Harry agreed. Though from Harry's PoV we as readers can see that Harry is not really trying to hide anything, from Murphy's PoV it sure look a lot like Harry is doing exactly that. In truth, Harry is indeed hiding a lot of things. Harry has not yet clued Murphy in on the supernatural like he did in book 4. Though Harry has a reason for it, it is undeniable that it is a violation of the full disclosure agreement she and Harry consented at the start of the investigations. In a way, it is a kind of betrayal on Harry's part. This is exactly what ID Harry is saying to Harry when he is unconscious.
--- End quote ---

When do we see this close partnership? Their relationship in Storm Front is basically Murphy not really trusting Harry but trying to get his help regardless, then we're told that Murphy hasn't talked to Harry between Storm Front and Fool Moon, then in Fool Moon their relationship starts as Murphy not really trusting Harry but trying to get his help regardless and degenerates from there.


--- Quote ---Harry has his own reasons to do what he did. Murphy has her own reason to blew her top too. I am not saying that it is right for her to punch Harry. I am just saying that it is not out of character for her to do so. She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.
--- End quote ---

And I'm saying that if that scene in Fool Moon is not out of character for Murphy, then Murphy is a character whom I do not like and do not think is a particularly decent person.


--- Quote ---And of course she is going to listen to Harry. It is due process of the law after all. No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs.
--- End quote ---

Assaulting suspects is not due process of the law, yet Murphy had no problem with that. I fail to see how, after a scene in which Murphy clearly disregards the law, and in which you say that she is not out of character, you can then turn around and claim that it is obvious Murphy would not do something outside the law and that always following the law is an intrinsic part of her character at that time.

Also, you did not respond to my reasons for not believing that Murphy would listen to Harry: namely, that when Harry tried to say something, she punched him in the face and said, "no more talking." That sends a pretty clear message.

Mira:

--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 02, 2019, 12:13:21 AM ---If you steal money while knowing that you did something rong . Even if you return the money afterwards to the last penny, it does not change the fact that you did a crime. It just show that you are remorseful. especially since you only return it after you are asked to do it or even pressured to do it. We may argue that Harry will return Bob voluntarily at the end, but since the text is as it is, we will never know.

--- End quote ---

I cannot remember, did Harry actually give the skull to Harry?  Or did Murphy because she was executor of his will?  And even if she did, since Harry never died, isn't the skull technically still his?

Bad Alias:

--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 01, 2019, 07:00:59 AM ---I doubt anyone knows that Uriel is involve in book 13.

--- End quote ---
Bob does. Butters has Bob and is concerned Harry came back wrong. Butters should know because he should have talked to Bob about it.


--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 01, 2019, 07:00:59 AM ---As for Murphy in FM. Of course Murphy intend to talk to Harry about it. She is going to listen to him. She is just going to do it in the police station, not in Mcfinn's home.
--- End quote ---
I don't believe that for a second. She's furious with him. He keeps trying to talk to her and she keeps stopping him. Then she reads him his rights. Interrogation is all about getting and keeping the witness/suspect talking. If you do that long enough, you will get all the evidence you need. At this point, she has serious legal restrictions preventing an effective interrogation from taking place. Before that, she had a talking suspect with little in the way of legal rights protecting him from questioning. Murphy had no intention of questioning or listening to Dresden at this point.


--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 01, 2019, 07:00:59 AM ---So Murphy has a bad temper, well, nobody's perfect.

--- End quote ---
She committed a federal felony when she started beating on him. It's a really, really big deal. Under the law, she should go to prison for several years, permanently lose several rights, and never be allowed in law enforcement again.

[Edit]

--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on June 02, 2019, 12:27:24 AM ---[1.]She is human after all. She can misunderstand and make a mistake like anyone else.

[2.]And of course she is going to listen to Harry. [3.]It is due process of the law after all. [4.]No matter how angry she was, FM Murphy will never use public power to avenge private wrongs.

--- End quote ---

1. I've never gotten so mad I committed a felony. I think you're underestimating the weight of what Murphy did here. 2. Already addressed. 3. No. Due process is many things, but it has nothing to do with being able to make your case to the arresting officer, lead investigator, or even prosecutor. 4. That's exactly what she is doing. The private wrong is a betrayal of trust, which didn't actually happen. The abuse of public power was the previously mentioned felony.

huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on June 02, 2019, 08:22:19 PM ---Bob does. Butters has Bob and is concerned Harry came back wrong. Butters should know because he should have talked to Bob about it.
I don't believe that for a second. She's furious with him. He keeps trying to talk to her and she keeps stopping him. Then she reads him his rights. Interrogation is all about getting and keeping the witness/suspect talking. If you do that long enough, you will get all the evidence you need. At this point, she has serious legal restrictions preventing an effective interrogation from taking place. Before that, she had a talking suspect with little in the way of legal rights protecting him from questioning. Murphy had no intention of questioning or listening to Dresden at this point.
She committed a federal felony when she started beating on him. It's a really, really big deal. Under the law, she should go to prison for several years, permanently lose several rights, and never be allowed in law enforcement again.

[Edit]
1. I've never gotten so mad I committed a felony. I think you're underestimating the weight of what Murphy did here. 2. Already addressed. 3. No. Due process is many things, but it has nothing to do with being able to make your case to the arresting officer, lead investigator, or even prosecutor. 4. That's exactly what she is doing. The private wrong is a betrayal of trust, which didn't actually happen. The abuse of public power was the previously mentioned felony.

--- End quote ---

First thing, it is exactly due process not to listen too much to a suspect words during the time of arrest. There is a better time to do that kind of thing. You have the right to remain silent is not a joke. A suspect is treated differently than a witness, and Murphy acted as such. If Murphy stay and listen, she could be accuse with colluding with a felon, especially since this a serial murder case which is very sensitive. Murphy herself already landed half way into hot water by allowing someone who is rumored to be working for Marcone into the investigations at the time when it is known that Mcfinn and Marcone has a conflict of interest.

As for police vilence, well, you know yourself that this kind of thing happened quite often. Furthermore, Murphy know more than most what Harry is capable of. It is actually not a bad idea to incapacitate Harry with a punch just in case. Harry is a powerful and dangerous man after all. It might not be legal or ethical, but it is practical to put the guy down to reduce the chance of complication. In the case of FM, Harry is innocent and he probably won't escape the police, but nobody knows that and Murphy can no longer depend on the trust between her and Harry.

Harry is a good guy, but in case he is the bad guy, he need to be treated seriously considering his power. It is the same reason why the white council is so wary of him. The same reason why Murphy is harsh on him in book 14. The same principle applies. It is the side effect of having great power which is probably why the council emphasize secrecy.

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