The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who really killed Margaret McCoy Dresden
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on April 29, 2019, 01:49:58 AM ---Why wouldn't he? The ability to fight and/or control Outsiders is a pretty big deal.
--- End quote ---
In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders. Generally involving Holy artifacts. His move is to put a coin on someone, which he has already tried with Harry. He did it with Deidre.
Look for the person or persons who shielded Maggie so she could have Harry. My WAG is that the protection expired at the live birth of Harry. Maybe Lea did that, probably not Mab. Maggie knew she was the walking dead, don't ya think? She was making ready when she left, she evidently had Thomas prepped. She bargained with the Sidhe, she gave her map to Lea to hold for Harry, she left messages for both boys. This is a Winter story line. Or am I just breathing moon dust?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---This makes little sense to me. Raising Harry from childhood would have been the perfect way to indoctrinate him. Waiting until he's an adult having been raised by other people only makes Nic's supposed goal here harder to obtain.
I mean, consider who is Nic's most trusted and loyal follower -- his actual daughter, who he clearly did raise and allowed to keep her tongue.
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Just to play devil's advocate here, he could have needed Harry to develop the obstreperousness that he now has--Nic has said that it is why he can trust that Harry has not been corrupted by the "Black Council."
--- Quote ---If you remember what Nic tells Harry about why he didn’t help Cassius after the events of DM - it’s because he didn’t want to “help” Cassius, since that would make Snakeboy a parasite who needs Nic’s largesse to thrive & that would be unfair to Cassius - a truly sociopathic line of reasoning. This is towards someone he has known for at least a few centuries.
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I'd always assumed that he was lying. I mean, the situation was that Nic was trying to convince Harry to work with him, and Harry said that Cassius was one reason why he wouldn't. I just thought that Nic just came up with a plausible-sounding reason for Harry rather than say that it was because Cassius betrayed him (Nic knows that Harry would be inclined to work against him at first, and wouldn't want to discourage Harry working for him at least part-time because of it).
--- Quote ---I think you're underselling Nic's trust in Deirdre; it seems to me more on the 'trust, but verify' level that he distrusts her, simply because he's asking the ultimate question and so has been unable to really test the waters properly (and as the only sensible bad guy, he rather doesn't pit himself against survival instincts if he can help it but instead prepares to deflect such snags to his plans).
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Definitely.
--- Quote ---Dunno, there’s no guarantee that raising Harry will make him turn out to be like Deidre - if that were the case, Harry wouldn’t have rebelled as seriously against Justin (Elaine didn’t). Or that Harry would be more drawn the magically talented Tessa (opp of Deedee).
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Justin also didn't raise Harry from the moment he was born. And I have no trouble believing that Nic would find it easy to keep Harry away from Tessa, especially since he had his own magic-user in Cassius.
--- Quote ---Because if he treated Harry like a son, he could more easily mold and manipulate him.
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This.
--- Quote ---In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders.
--- End quote ---
Actually, a good chunk of his interactions with Harry in Small Favor imply that he's working against Outsiders/Nemesis.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 29, 2019, 02:51:30 AM ---In every case we have seen to the present, he is interested in some goal unrelated to any battle with the outsiders. Generally involving Holy artifacts. His move is to put a coin on someone, which he has already tried with Harry. He did it with Deidre.
--- End quote ---
Because, of course, the things we see from Nicodemus are the entirety of his plans, right?
Also, remind me what artifact we've seen that has been the most effective in battle against Outsiders, so effective that the guy wielding it didn't even realize they were supposed to be difficult to fight?
Amoracchius. A holy artifact.
And what did Mab send Harry to get, as weapons to prepare for war with the Outsiders?
A bunch of holy artifacts.
--- Quote ---Look for the person or persons who shielded Maggie so she could have Harry.
--- End quote ---
This sentence in itself is WAG -- we don't know that anybody "shielded" Maggie. By all appearances and the text of the book, Maggie just ran away from everyone and was away from all her prior connections when she conceived and had Harry.
The whole idea that Harry was the result of this massive conspiracy is WAG more than it is text.
Certainly there are hints that Harry's birth was special, and that now people are very interested in Harry, but the idea that half the supernatural world played midwife to it runs contrary to nearly everything we've learned about that part of Maggie Sr.'s life.
--- Quote ---Just to play devil's advocate here, he could have needed Harry to develop the obstreperousness that he now has--Nic has said that it is why he can trust that Harry has not been corrupted by the "Black Council."
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He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on April 29, 2019, 01:20:05 PM ---Because, of course, the things we see from Nicodemus are the entirety of his plans, right?
Also, remind me what artifact we've seen that has been the most effective in battle against Outsiders, so effective that the guy wielding it didn't even realize they were supposed to be difficult to fight?
Amoracchius. A holy artifact.
And what did Mab send Harry to get, as weapons to prepare for war with the Outsiders?
A bunch of holy artifacts.
--- End quote ---
And what was Nic after? I don't know what his plan is, I just know what he does, and it hasn't been chasing Starborns. If Nic had wanted Harry he would have had him.
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on April 29, 2019, 01:20:05 PM ---This sentence in itself is WAG -- we don't know that anybody "shielded" Maggie. By all appearances and the text of the book, Maggie just ran away from everyone and was away from all her prior connections when she conceived and had Harry.
The whole idea that Harry was the result of this massive conspiracy is WAG more than it is text.
Certainly there are hints that Harry's birth was special, and that now people are very interested in Harry, but the idea that half the supernatural world played midwife to it runs contrary to nearly everything we've learned about that part of Maggie Sr.'s life.
He also apparently trusted that Deirdre wasn't corrupted.
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We know Raith attempted to enthrall her, and at least partially succeeded if only for a while. Certainly she was around long enough to have him acquire enough of whatever he needed to track her. If it was Raith, why did he wait? When she ran with whatever secrets she had, why not then, rather than later. More specifically right after she delivers. Not before or later but right during the act. And she didn't hide in Faerie but in the human world. Here is the relevant part of the semi official timeline.
--- Quote ---26 BSF, some time between August and October – Malcolm Dresden and his heavily-pregnant wife Margaret visit the Lincoln Memorial.
26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. Harry’s mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth. She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith.
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And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial? She was Lincoln's contemporary. :)
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on April 29, 2019, 01:51:43 PM ---And what was Nic after? I don't know what his plan is, I just know what he does, and it hasn't been chasing Starborns. If Nic had wanted Harry he would have had him.
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Are you forgetting that Nic has tried to recruit Harry like three times by then?
Nic obviously wants Harry on his side.
--- Quote ---We know Raith attempted to enthrall her, and at least partially succeeded if only for a while. Certainly she was around long enough to have him acquire enough of whatever he needed to track her. If it was Raith, why did he wait? When she ran with whatever secrets she had, why not then, rather than later. More specifically right after she delivers. Not before or later but right during the act. And she didn't hide in Faerie but in the human world.
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Who said he waited? Remember that Maggie was a powerful wizard in her own right who knew Lord Raith well enough to truly hurt him with her death curse. I can very much believe that she was simply able to defend herself and evade him until something big -- like, you know, giving birth -- made it impossible for her to keep up those defenses.
A character taking an action a certain way does not mean that they deliberately intended to do it that way.
--- Quote ---Here is the relevant part of the semi official timeline.And why in the hell did she go to the Lincoln Memorial? She was Lincoln's contemporary. :)
--- End quote ---
And that bit tells us absolutely nothing about the meantime.
Again, don't assume any one character is in such total control that everything they do is deliberately, purposefully timed. Lord Raith is no more immune to someone throwing a wrench in his plans than Harry is.
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