The Dresden Files > DFRPG
Rewriting Lawbreaker Powers
backseat_adventurer:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 13, 2019, 01:31:36 PM ---Well, that's the problem. If I'm roleplaying a character like Harry, I'm not breaking the Laws, so I get no bonus. Therefore, there are no mechanical benefits to spending the refresh.
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LOL, I think that's my point too. The Lawbreaker power just seems like it's supposed to be a punishment of sorts, as well as a Tantalus. I think I was looking at it like that because I've had a few problem players in the past. I do see how you wouldn't get much mileage if you weren't going warlock. It's rather like Marked Like Power, which seems set up to both be an advantage and a detriment depending on the situation but mechanically it's just awkward.
--- Quote ---The equivalent is, it doesn't have one. If it's not an attack, it doesn't get the Lawbreaker (1st) bonus.
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That's exactly the problem. If you give something nice to the 1st Law, you have to do something nice for the rest of them.
--- Quote ---Do you have any suggestions for Lawbreaker (2nd-4th, & 6th)? I've already written up my idea for Lawbreaker (1st), and I figure Lawbreaker (5th) should just be +1 to necromancy since necromancers are supposed to be scary powerful and you'll get a lot more consequences from the White Council even if you avoid technically breaking the Laws.
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I'd love to hear suggestions. Most of the areas of magic the Laws prohibits or limits are pretty broad.
Deadmanwalking:
--- Quote from: backseat_adventurer on March 13, 2019, 08:12:35 PM ---I suppose I've been playing with far too many players who would completely take advantage of that. Since most opponents in combat are non-human they can intend to kill, take advantage of the bonus, but not 'really' break the Law another time. Then it's a mad scramble to engineer situations to prevent that. Our table is currently pretty reasonable but I suppose I've learned a few knee-jerk habits.
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I'm not sure what the problem here is, honestly. Sure, they'll use the bonus and get a +1 to hit nonhuman foes pretty regularly...but they spent a Refresh, getting an actual bonus out of it seems totally legit to me.
--- Quote from: backseat_adventurer on March 13, 2019, 08:12:35 PM ---If it works out in play, I will take it on. I just don't want to reward bad behavior ;)
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This version has the nice bonus of making people who've taken Lawbreaker significantly more inclined to murdering their enemies of all sorts, since they're better at it. That's pretty accurate to Harry Dresden's characterization, and seems very appropriate to me thematically. In many ways, they're being less rewarded and more incentivized to continue with the murder.
backseat_adventurer:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on March 14, 2019, 12:21:26 AM ---I'm not sure what the problem here is, honestly. Sure, they'll use the bonus and get a +1 to hit nonhuman foes pretty regularly...but they spent a Refresh, getting an actual bonus out of it seems totally legit to me.
This version has the nice bonus of making people who've taken Lawbreaker significantly more inclined to murdering their enemies of all sorts, since they're better at it. That's pretty accurate to Harry Dresden's characterization, and seems very appropriate to me thematically. In many ways, they're being less rewarded and more incentivized to continue with the murder.
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I'd say that the problem I was worrying about was more that they'd add a few more Lawbreaker powers. Then they have a +2 or +3 to any attack they make, so long as they're aiming to kill. I'd probably intervene and have the Council or a Big Bad arm wrestle them into a less overt use of their magic but it's still remarkably powerful.
As for the comparison between Lawbreaker and an evocation specialization, with a specialization, you get a +2 bonus to use upon one element and for control and/or discipline. With a couple of Lawbreaker powers, it's to every element you have. That is a lot of flexibility with the minor catch being that you have to go for lethal blows.
Now, the original post was talking about a character that is on the redemption track. That probably wouldn't be a problem but for some players? That might get interesting.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I'd say that the problem I was worrying about was more that they'd add a few more Lawbreaker powers. Then they have a +2 or +3 to any attack they make, so long as they're aiming to kill. I'd probably intervene and have the Council or a Big Bad arm wrestle them into a less overt use of their magic but it's still remarkably powerful.
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I'm pretty sure this problem has a built-in solution: the stronger they are, the more likely they are to get killed by the White Council. Players abusing Lawbreaker powers? Throw a warden hunting party at them. They dodge that? Well, whatever problem they're trying to solve has also attracted the attention of the White Council. They kill the wardens sent after them? Well, now they've attracted the attention of Blackstaff McCoy, and so on.
Sanctaphrax:
--- Quote from: Deadmanwalking on March 13, 2019, 11:36:43 AM ---And that's my broadened version. The version that gives +1 control only to kill humans specifically? Absurdly and unconscionably weak for a full Refresh. Heck, that's weak for a Stunt, never mind a Power. A Stunt to give +1 to hit humans with an attack skill is plausible...but add the killing restriction and that's weaker even than most other Stunts. And Powers are rather intentionally more impressive than Stunts.
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It can be useful at high Refresh. The pyramid system puts a premium on cap-breaking bonuses.
But yeah, it's pretty terrible at the levels people are actually meant to play at.
--- Quote from: backseat_adventurer on March 14, 2019, 02:09:50 AM ---I'd say that the problem I was worrying about was more that they'd add a few more Lawbreaker powers. Then they have a +2 or +3 to any attack they make, so long as they're aiming to kill.
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That is extremely expensive refresh-wise and not really worth it unless you're having cap issues.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 13, 2019, 01:31:36 PM ---Do you have any suggestions for Lawbreaker (2nd-4th, & 6th)?
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The second could probably be stretched to include a variety of maneuvers. Evocation can't really transform people but it can put Aspects on them and if you squint that's similar.
The fourth is powerful if you allow mental evocation attacks, which Evil Hat seems to. You shouldn't, though.
The third and sixth, unfortunately, are pretty useless for evocation and pretty narrow for thaumaturgy. You could have them broaden the Lawbreaker's evocation a bit; perhaps Sixth Lawbreakers can use time as an evocation element.
Might be worth thinking about compressing multiple Laws into single powers. You could connect them all to the same Power, or just merge 3+4 and 6+7.
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on March 14, 2019, 03:21:40 AM ---I'm pretty sure this problem has a built-in solution: the stronger they are, the more likely they are to get killed by the White Council. Players abusing Lawbreaker powers? Throw a warden hunting party at them. They dodge that? Well, whatever problem they're trying to solve has also attracted the attention of the White Council. They kill the wardens sent after them? Well, now they've attracted the attention of Blackstaff McCoy, and so on.
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The solution to a player taking over the story by being stronger than the other PCs is not to have them take over the story even more.
Besides, Compels are supposed to make things like "somebody wants me dead" into mixed blessings rather than outright problems.
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