The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Is there anything Mab can't command Harry to do? (Getting out of the WK idea.)
Mira:
--- Quote ---The answer may end up lying in Mab's promise not to order him to harm anyone he loves after all--if Elaine is infected with Nemesis, for instance, Mab would want her dead but could not command Harry to kill her.
--- End quote ---
However knowing the Enemy, Harry may choose to kill her if he cannot cure her.
--- Quote ---Given Mab's limitations and the reason why the faerie Knights exist, however, I doubt that Mab could force Harry to kill a mortal unassociated with the Courts or outright lie.
--- End quote ---
Yes, she can. As Eb said
--- Quote ---They can make you do things---but they can't make you choose to do'em. They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
--- End quote ---
So yes, like she forced him to pierce his hand on the mail spike, she can force him to do anything.. However it is still Harry's choice whether or not to follow her orders, but there are consequences if he refuses... Mab actually respects that, it is a quality she hasn't had in her knight in a very very long time.. Not saying it makes her happy, or that she won't kill Harry for refusing or more likely make him wish he were dead for choosing not to follow her command, but she respects him for it.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---However knowing the Enemy, Harry may choose to kill her if he cannot cure her.
--- End quote ---
Exactly. It is something Harry would agree to if Mab made it her third favor, but not something she could order Harry to do as her knight.
--- Quote ---Yes, she can.
--- End quote ---
I'm not convinced of that. While I agree that she can force him to do most things, I think forcing him to try and kill a mortal unaffiliated with the Courts might be like when Aurora's plant construct tried to attack Murphy--because Murphy was someone Aurora couldn't kill, her construct couldn't either. I'm reasonably convinced that Mab taking control of Harry's body like she did with the letter opener would be the same thing.
Kindler:
The "blood, bone, and breath" statement, I think, is supposed to parallel, "mind, body, and soul," except it actually just means, "body, body, body." Harry's mind and soul are still his own, as shown in Ghost Story by a certain archangel (and, you know, Harry doing his thing on his own during his soul walkabout).
The lesson from Uriel, which Harry immediately chucks back into Mab's face, is that Mab would have to control his body physically if she wanted to control his every movement, which would obviate his will. That brings me to Cold Days, during which Harry begins to use raw willpower more directly than ever. For example, he broke Mother Winter's "shackles," which were wrought with her own will. I think, at the level Harry is playing now, Mab wouldn't be able to directly puppet Harry anymore, or at least not for long. I think it's one reason Mab went out of her way to manipulate Harry into cooperating with Nicodemus in Skin Game (isolating him, waiting until the last possible moment to tell him about the parasite, etc.) Essentially, Mab makes another deal with Harry to get him to do it (though it probably isn't a Deal in strict Fae terms).
Anyway, I'm not sure about the details of Winter Law and whether or not Harry could find a loophole in the agreement to fulfill the Third Service and weasel out of being the Winter Knight. The only stipulations Harry makes are that his body is restored to health, he's given enough time and power to rescue his daughter and get her to safety, and Mab never commands him to "lift [a] hand against those [he] loves." The exact word "command" might be tricky enough alone to weasel out of the deal. For example, if Mab commands Harry to kill Murphy in vengeance for her part in killing Maeve, Harry might be able to use that as a way out of the deal, even if he doesn't actually kill her.
Mab also might've dealt in bad faith from the start, depending upon the mechanism she used to heal Harry's back. Welching on Winter Law, for some reason, temporarily paralyzed him again; Harry's exact words were "before my service begins," which may mean before he accepts the Winter Knight's Mantle. So he should not need the Mantle to still use his legs. On the other hand, if Mab interpreted it as "before I give you your first command," or something, then it's still technically accurate enough for Fae purposes.
I'm not sure about what else Mab might order Harry to do. Traditionally, in Deal with the Devil tropes, someone will make a bargain in exchange for completing a task that's impossible, and use some alternate win condition to accomplish it.
Personally, I think Harry is just going to get strong enough to change "masks," as VaderrIngle puts it. Harry won't stop being the Winter Knight; he'll simply become something else. Lord of the Little Folk or something, maybe.
Bad Alias:
Jim has explicitly said that the deal to become the Winter Knight supersedes the three favor deal. He said that same deal initially offered to Harry to become Winter Knight was the deal made in Changes.
However, the books do not say this. The deal Harry made in Changes has completely different consideration than the first Winter Knight deal. Mab never mentions the earlier deal. There is no "I'll throw in saving your daughter as a kicker." Harry says I'll be your Knight if you give me the power and knowledge to save my daughter, and I get to be me at least until it's done, and Mab will never order him to raise a hand against, or whatever the phrasing was, his loved ones. (Note it doesn't say anything about the Lady or Mother or even a different Queen).
If we were to apply the English common law or most modern contract law based on it, both the three favor and Changes Winter Knight deal would be in place.
Now, Mab would be smart to keep both deals in place. If Harry somehow gets out of being the Winter Knight, she still has a favor left. If she needs Harry to kill a loved one, as mentioned earlier, she has leverage. Remember, Harry has killed a loved one at least once, maybe twice. It's hard to say whether he still loved Justin.
--- Quote from: Kindler on February 25, 2019, 05:50:25 PM ---Personally, I think Harry is just going to get strong enough to change "masks," as VaderrIngle puts it. Harry won't stop being the Winter Knight; he'll simply become something else. Lord of the Little Folk or something, maybe.
--- End quote ---
I think something like this is more likely than Harry somehow getting clear of being Winter Knight. Perhaps he picks up another mantle, so he can step out of one into the other, or he simply learns how to put the Winter Knight mantle on a shelf until needed.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Jim has explicitly said that the deal to become the Winter Knight supersedes the three favor deal. He said that same deal initially offered to Harry to become Winter Knight was the deal made in Changes.
However, the books do not say this. The deal Harry made in Changes has completely different consideration than the first Winter Knight deal. Mab never mentions the earlier deal. There is no "I'll throw in saving your daughter as a kicker." Harry says I'll be your Knight if you give me the power and knowledge to save my daughter, and I get to be me at least until it's done, and Mab will never order him to raise a hand against, or whatever the phrasing was, his loved ones. (Note it doesn't say anything about the Lady or Mother or even a different Queen).
If we were to apply the English common law or most modern contract law based on it, both the three favor and Changes Winter Knight deal would be in place.
--- End quote ---
Here's the WoJ:
--- Quote ---Now, prior to Cold Days Dresden still owes Mab one favour, does he still owe her that favour or did the events of Cold Days make up for his obligation?
Technically yeah, he still kind of owes her that one favour, but on the other hand, he also sort of owes her his complete loyalty, devotion and obedience so the extra favour is, you know, it’s like “yeah okay, he also does have a hand grenade in his hand while he’s sitting on top of a nuke that’s about to go off”, so you know, technically she could probably mess with that if he somehow got out of being the knight, But uh, generally speaking that didn’t just get wiped away, Mab keeps very good books and that’s not something that’s going to be, she does not let things slide, it does not happen.
--- End quote ---
So it sounds like both deals are still in effect, it's just that the Winter Knight deal is so much bigger that the three favors deal is mostly irrelevant (outside specific circumstances that we're discussing).
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