The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
Mira:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 24, 2019, 04:53:26 AM ---The word cooperated is getting in the way of his interpretation. However I suspect he is right in terms of the book, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
--- End quote ---
I believe that Harry did willingly pick up the coin to prevent little Harry from picking it up... However he could have just picked up little Harry. So it is a little of both, I also don't think Harry truly bought how dangerous the coins really were. Yeah, he observed the great care the Knights used not to even accidentally touch a coin, he thought they were over reacting. In his arrogance he thought he could without consequence, kind of like the cat that couldn't resist jumping on the hot stove. This was Nic's opening, remember as Shiela the shadow was deeply entrenched in Harry's head before Harry even was aware. It took future Holy Knight Butters to bring him back to reality, that this beautiful woman he was courting wasn't there...
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 24, 2019, 03:10:04 AM ---I'm trying to reconcile two seemly different points of view. If what you assert here is true then it would be impossible for the coin to pass the Shadow to a host. Since to put the Shadow in, the Fallen must act outside the coin. While Harry could be accused of willingly cooperating the child can't.
--- End quote ---
It's easy.
The Shadow is not the Fallen.
The Fallen is not affecting the outside world when it creates the Shadow. It's only affecting the creature that willingly picked up the coin.
There's two distinct mechanisms going on here.
1. Person picks up coin; by picking it up, they're effecting clicking "Agree" on the EULA they didn't read, which allows the Fallen to implant the Shadow, like an evil widget on your browser.
2. Person accepts the Fallen; by actually agreeing to use the Fallen's power, they haven't just clicked "Agree," they now actively using the program and letting it affect stuff on their harddrive.
Mira:
--- Quote ---1. Person picks up coin; by picking it up, they're effecting clicking "Agree" on the EULA they didn't read, which allows the Fallen to implant the Shadow, like an evil widget on your browser.
2. Person accepts the Fallen; by actually agreeing to use the Fallen's power, they haven't just clicked "Agree," they now actively using the program and letting it affect stuff on their harddrive.
--- End quote ---
Like everything connected with Harry it gets complicated... Harry willingly picked up the coin, his motives fuzzy, on one hand he wanted to protect little Harry, but he could have simply have picked up little Harry... He knew he could be in danger so he thought if he buried it and put a power circle around it he'd be safe... It was already too late, also as Uriel demonstrated back in Changes, circles are ineffective against angels as what happened with Lasciel, fallen angels as well. Harry had to learn that lesson the hard way... So picking up the coin wasn't accidental or unwitting, however Harry never agreed or ever intend to agree to become a host to a coin..
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---So picking up the coin wasn't accidental or unwitting
--- End quote ---
I think the Knights, at least, believe that picking up the coin without knowing what it is still gets you a shadow in your head--that's why Shiro stops Harry from touching Ursiel's coin before he knows about Denarians and why Michael says that if his son had touched the coin he would have been raised by Lasciel as a weapon against his family.
Bad Alias:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on February 23, 2019, 02:07:23 PM ---To actually cast the spell, you have to break the circle. That's what Harry does every time we see him cast from within a circle -- the spell energies can't escape until the circle is broken. A circle is a closed thing, a trap.
On top of that, the coin itself is a similarly closed trap. The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.
The idea that the Fallen itself -- while in the coin, not on Harry's person, and trapped behind a circle -- is actively, directly powering his magic runs contrary to every concept involved here.
--- End quote ---
A circle can be broken by a being of spirit, both from within and from without. If a circle was an impenetrable force from which magic could not pass, Harry wouldn't have been worried in Storm Front about the hair Victor Sells had. Did Harry communicate with Eb using the stones from within a circle when Harry contacted Eb?
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on February 23, 2019, 06:12:17 PM ---It's a solid steel ring, and the whispers Harry is hearing cut off when he empowers it. That seems to me to make it clear that Harry was able to cut it off.
--- End quote ---
It occurred to me that Lasciel could have not been effected at all by the circle, but was letting Harry think he had the upper hand. I'm not saying I believe it; it's just a thought I had.
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