The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on February 23, 2019, 10:55:25 PM ---Just because I answer the door when you knock, doesn't mean you can set up housekeeping in my basement. Obviously the child that Harry was trying to protect didn't have the capacity to understand what the coin represented. He couldn't have made any type of decision other than, "Look,shiney, let me put it in my mouth." Which belies the idea that you have to let them in by knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up.
--- End quote ---
I never said or implied that "knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up" is at all necessary to pick up the coin. Having the capacity to know what the coin was is irrelevant.
What's relevant is willingly picking it up. That's it. You chose to pick it up -- it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you knew all the consequences of that action. Just like getting hit by a car doesn't mean you made the choice to get hit -- it means you made the choice to step off the curb at that point in time.
After that, there's the choice to accept the Fallen and use its power fully. That might be a more informed decision, but still does not require that the Fallen lay out every single term and consequence.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I never said or implied that "knowing what the coin represents when you pick it up" is at all necessary to pick up the coin. Having the capacity to know what the coin was is irrelevant.
What's relevant is willingly picking it up. That's it. You chose to pick it up -- it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you knew all the consequences of that action. Just like getting hit by a car doesn't mean you made the choice to get hit -- it means you made the choice to step off the curb at that point in time.
After that, there's the choice to accept the Fallen and use its power fully. That might be a more informed decision, but still does not require that the Fallen lay out every single term and consequence.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
morriswalters:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on February 24, 2019, 12:30:31 AM ---What's relevant is willingly picking it up. That's it. You chose to pick it up -- it doesn't matter in the slightest whether you knew all the consequences of that action. Just like getting hit by a car doesn't mean you made the choice to get hit -- it means you made the choice to step off the curb at that point in time.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on February 23, 2019, 02:07:23 PM ---On top of that, the coin itself is a similarly closed trap. The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.
--- End quote ---
I'm trying to reconcile two seemly different points of view. If what you assert here is true then it would be impossible for the coin to pass the Shadow to a host. Since to put the Shadow in, the Fallen must act outside the coin. While Harry could be accused of willingly cooperating the child can't.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---I'm trying to reconcile two seemly different points of view. If what you assert here is true then it would be impossible for the coin to pass the Shadow to a host. Since to put the Shadow in, the Fallen must act outside the coin. While Harry could be accused of willingly cooperating the child can't.
--- End quote ---
I think the issue here might be that "willing" is not the same as "knowing". If the child had touched the coin willingly, it would have allowed the coin to place its shadow inside him even though he had no idea what he was doing. Does that make sense?
morriswalters:
The word cooperated is getting in the way of his interpretation. However I suspect he is right in terms of the book, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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