The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
Mira:
--- Quote ---That doesn't make any sense. The whole point of the circle is to cut it off from everything else. And the whole point of the coin is to keep the Fallen from affecting anything outside the coin.
How can it cut off the Fallen from Harry, but not cut off the Fallen from the Shadow which is inside Harry? How can the Fallen be connected to the Shadow when it's incapable of affecting anything outside its coin?
And Lash herself makes it clear that she isn't connected to Lasciel anymore; if she was connected to Lasciel, she'd be reabsorbed.
--- End quote ---
Not exactly true, because in White Night just before she sacrifices herself to save Harry she still tries to get him to summon the coin with her help.
page 362
--- Quote ---"I can't"she replied, her voice anguished. "She would never forgive that. Never accept me back into her. . . just take the coin. Harry, just take the coin. P-lease."
--- End quote ---
Harry still refuses and that is when she truly becomes Lash, an independent being separate from Lasciel and of her own free will sacrifices herself for Harry.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---Thank you for making my point, I think the problem here is we see what constitutes a "lie" differently.
What Michael told Harry may have been untrue, but only because Michael was mistaken, not because he deliberately told Harry this knowing it wasn't true, which would be a lie. Huge difference.. Also who knows? Since Harry didn't try Michael's suggestion, no one knows if it would actually have worked. To me a lie is something knowingly told as true when the teller knows perfectly well that it isn't..
--- End quote ---
We may well see what constitutes a lie differently. The argument I was referring to, however, had Michael deliberately exaggerate, thus knowingly saying something he knew wasn't strictly true.
--- Quote ---Personally, I think that the issue is that at the end of Proven Guilty, Michael still believes that magic is a dubious/corrupting power, and that if Harry gets rid of it it will reduce the shadow's hold on him. He lies via exaggeration and omission to Harry (saying that it will get rid of the shadow and not mentioning why he believes Harry giving up his magic will help) because he knows that if he explains things truthfully Harry will turn him down, and he genuinely wants to save Harry from Lasciel. He tells Harry that he believes Harry can find another way to get rid of the shadow because he knows how important hope is against the Fallen.
By Small Favor, however, Michael has had a chance to watch Molly being trained in magic, and to understand that magic is not an inherently corruptive force. Due to this, he no longer believes that giving up magic would help against the Fallen, and tells Harry that there is no way to be rid of a shadow short of picking up the coin.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Welcome to the real world.... Frankly you've lost me here... When Michael first told Harry, he wasn't lying, he was mistaken... Actually he may not have been mistaken because that theory was never tested by Harry.. It was an unrealistic suggestion, understood by the time Small Favor rolls around..
--- End quote ---
I have acknowledged the possibility. This is the "omission" part of my argument (see below).
--- Quote ---Not unlike angels... The question of ethics here isn't a simple one, you leave out the part about how the lives of thousands were in the balance if Harry hadn't gotten an answer out of Cassius.. Is that ethical?
--- End quote ---
I'm not leaving it out--it is a core part of my argument.
--- Quote ---What was it exactly that he omitted?
--- End quote ---
He never bothered to tell Harry that he was mistaken, even though, as I pointed out earlier, the consequences of Harry following through on it if it were false are potentially disastrous.
--- Quote ---Also who knows? Since Harry didn't try Michael's suggestion, no one knows if it would actually have worked. To me a lie is something knowingly told as true when the teller knows perfectly well that it isn't..
--- End quote ---
Then either he was right completely by accident or he was lying to Harry when he said that no one had ever gotten rid of a shadow without accepting the coin.
(Although, to argue for the other side for a moment: a third possibility is that he knew about the magic thing because TWG/angels told him. However, I consider this to be be a deus ex machina answer (literally) so I will continue to disregard it. )
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Bad Alias on February 22, 2019, 10:23:45 PM ---If I was going to use a spell targeting you with some blood, hair, fingernail clippings, etc., I would do it from within the circle. A shadow is a piece of its corresponding fallen. That's how they're connected. Does the fallen allow access to hellfire, or does it provide the hellfire itself? If we knew the answer, and the answer is as you say, I'd agree with you.
--- End quote ---
To actually cast the spell, you have to break the circle. That's what Harry does every time we see him cast from within a circle -- the spell energies can't escape until the circle is broken. A circle is a closed thing, a trap.
On top of that, the coin itself is a similarly closed trap. The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.
The idea that the Fallen itself -- while in the coin, not on Harry's person, and trapped behind a circle -- is actively, directly powering his magic runs contrary to every concept involved here.
The characters consistently phrase it as Lash having given Harry "access" to Hellfire. Nobody attributes it to the Fallen itself, to my knowledge.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---On top of that, the coin itself is a similarly closed trap. The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.
The idea that the Fallen itself -- while in the coin, not on Harry's person, and trapped behind a circle -- is actively, directly powering his magic runs contrary to every concept involved here.
--- End quote ---
Maybe. On the other hand, sufficiently powerful beings are not contained by normal circles--Harry mentions it when he's discussing the super-circle in Fool Moon.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---The whole point of the coins is to make it so the Fallen can't affect the outside world without the willing cooperation of a host that's holding the coin at the time.
--- End quote ---
The coins kick off the game when picked up by putting a shadow in the mind of the one who picked it up. Clearly the Fallen don't need consent to operate at some level.
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