The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on February 28, 2019, 08:48:03 PM ---Yes, Michael is allowed to have information that Nicodemus does not. (I have significant doubts that he could have information on this topic that Lash does not, considering what she is, but she doesn't say that it's impossible to be rid of the shadow in such a way--only that no one has ever held out against a shadow for as long as Harry.) Yes, Michael is allowed to be told things by TWG and their agents. I have explicitly brought up the possibility and stated that I was, for purely personal and subjective reasons, I was disregarding it. Since no one said anything about it, I had assumed that others were doing the same for the purposes of this discussion. If your claim is that I am wrong to disregard it, please say so and I will stop arguing the point.
--- End quote ---
Given it's a source we know Michael has gotten information from before, yes, I think it's wrong to disregard. It'd be like saying, "How does Harry know this? And don't say Bob told him."
--- Quote ---Absent the above point, however, Nicodemus has far more reason to know anything about the shadows than Michael, based on the information he has access to. And I would argue that he does have an incentive to keep track of other people's theories about what could get rid of the shadow in order to either make sure they don't work or see that they are forgotten/discredited.
--- End quote ---
If getting rid of a Shadow is a possibility, it is exceedingly rare. I mean, it's probably super rare that a wizard gets a coin in the first place -- most of the wielders we've seen don't appear to have been wizards or sorcerers before they got the coin. My point is not, "Nicodemus doesn't know about it, so it's impossible," the point is, "Nicodemus doesn't consider it a factor because it almost never happens, so he doesn't care enough to bother looking into it. Michael and his ilk, on the other hand really really want a way to remove the Shadow, therefore they'd have looked for it actively."
--- Quote ---It speaks to whether a reasonable person would believe it utterly, believe it's probably true, believe it might be true, or disbelieve it. I do not believe that Michael is stupid; I do believe that he is reasonable. I do also believe that Michael is capable of lying to himself about how high the chances are because he genuinely cares about Harry and doesn't want him to give in to the Fallen.
--- End quote ---
Michael believes it. Harry trusts Michael implicitly -- so to Harry, Michael believing it means that it's trustworthy, because Michael is trustworthy, and to Harry's knowledge -- and ours -- Michael would not tell Harry something that Michael believed would bring Harry to harm.
--- Quote ---And Michael forgives people--it's a central tenet of his character. That does not mean that he wouldn't have chosen vengeance against that priest guy who kidnapped his daughter without Harry's help--we have that from Uriel. The fact that Michael generally does not lie does not mean that he would not do so under extraordinary circumstances, and I am arguing that these circumstances are extraordinary.
--- End quote ---
How? Who's putting the gun to Michael's children's heads and forcing him to lie?
I still do not see any compelling reason for Michael to say this if it's a lie (more below).
--- Quote ---By this measure, he did tell Harry that there was no way to get rid of the shadow without taking up the coin when asked (this is support for the "lie of omission" theory, not any of the others).
--- End quote ---
No. When asked, Michael told Harry that to get rid of the shadow, he needs to get rid of his magic.
In the later conversation, Michael is not answering a question, he is making a point about why he thinks Harry still has the Shadow -- because, to Michael's knowledge, Harry has not done the things he knows of to get rid of a Shadow.
--- Quote ---Because Michael believes that it will help, just not as much as he says,
--- End quote ---
If what Michael is saying is a lie and Michael knows it, then Michael telling Harry does not help at all. As you have argued, if Harry tries to get rid of his magic and doesn't get rid of the Shadow, then it will only make things worse.
--- Quote ---because Michael believes that Harry never will take him up on it and believes that it is important that Harry have hope that there is some way of getting rid of the shadow,
--- End quote ---
Michael's reaction is clearly disappointed that Harry won't take him up on the offer; there are a number of ways Michael could have given Harry hope without lying if that was the case. There is no indication in the scene that Michael was trying to offer false hope.
If Michael truly did not know a way to get rid of the Shadow, he would have straight up told Harry, "I don't know how. But that doesn't mean there isn't a way, and I will be right there with you helping you through this."
--- Quote ---because Michael is lying to himself instead of Harry and doesn't emotionally face the real probability that Harry will be corrupted until he talks to Sanya about it in Small Favor,
--- End quote ---
Not true, because Michael ends the conversation by explicitly and directly confronting Harry with what he will do if Harry succumbs to the coin.
--- Quote ---or because he hasn't quite gotten over the issues he had with magic in Small Favor and believes that Harry's magic is inherently corruptive/leaves him more vulnerable to corruption (if this last is true, then I believe that he got over it after watching Molly's training).
--- End quote ---
Also not true, because the event they're driving home from is Harry volunteering to train Molly and Michael clearly approving of such an arrangement.
And I don't see anything to indicate Michael considers Harry putting aside his magic to be a higher priority than the risks you say exist if putting aside magic doesn't get rid of the Shadow.
--- Quote ---There are plenty of reasons.
--- End quote ---
And none of them work.
--- Quote ---Can you explain this? I genuinely don't understand either how I'm moving the goalposts or (inclusive or)
--- End quote ---
Putting this in spoilers just to save room.
(click to show/hide)In this analogy (and I do not intend this as any judgment or statement on disabilities), you going to and finishing college is analogous to Harry getting rid of the coin. Your learning disability is, if anything, analogous to Lash; the obstacle to doing the thing you want, a thing that you/Harry are well aware of as an obstacle.
Saying the disability is the equivalent of Michael's idea not working is disingenuous, because Michael's idea not working is just not a factor that Michael or Harry are aware about or would be, except in the sense that all plans that anyone ever makes have the unspoken rider of, 'If this works.'
--- Quote ---why Michael has no reason to consider that it might not work (or why Harry would not have had reason to consider it if he'd thought about it for more that two seconds).
--- End quote ---
See below.
--- Quote ---We have Michael claiming that it would work. We have Nicodemus having no knowledge that it is possible at all for someone to get rid of a shadow, which I have said is another data point (since if it could be done, there's a good chance that Nicodemus would know about it. We have no evidence of it failing or succeeding. I personally consider the odds of it working to be 60-40 against, but you probably calculate them differently.
--- End quote ---
Nicodemus having no knowledge is not a data point -- it's a lack of one. If Nicodemus had positively claimed Michael was full of crap, that would be one thing -- though I would probably still doubt it, because Nicodemus is a liar who has incentive to lie here.
--- Quote ---The part where Michael prioritizes saving souls above all else. My argument is, and always has been, that Michael would be willing to lie only for the purpose of saving a soul.
--- End quote ---
And how does Harry giving up his magic, retaining the Shadow, resenting Michael for it, and possibly taking up the coin again save Harry's soul?
--- Quote ---The problem is that I'm saying "well here is a place where he might have lied" and you are saying "he didn't lie there because he doesn't lie ever" when if I'm correct and he did lie there it would invalidate the claim that he doesn't lie ever. That is why I am calling it a circular argument.
--- End quote ---
I'm saying we have a whole lot of evidence that Michael doesn't lie; and someone who doesn't lie often, has an aversion to lying, and has been shown as visibly uncomfortable when other people lie? They don't lie very well. Michael presents no tells that he's lying. He doesn't hesitate, he doesn't stop to think, he doesn't look away, he just straight up, instantly, tells Harry that there's a way to get rid of a Shadow.
How does he know? In the same scene, he admits that he's known for years that Harry picked up the coin. It only makes sense that -- knowing his friend has a Shadow in his head -- he would look into some way to help him.
--- Quote ---We have never seen Michael in a position where he must lie in order to save a soul, and instead tells the truth. We have seen him do things which he is uncomfortable with to serve a higher good. We have seen him deliberately omit facts when telling Harry things. This is circumstantial evidence, yes, but while it exists it provides support for the possibility that Michael might have lied.
--- End quote ---
I think Michael would posit that lying doesn't save souls; in fact, that lying taints the soul. Lying is, among other things, one of the problems he has with the Denarians in general. I mean, hell, isn't Satan referred to as things like the "lord of lies"? With all that in mind, I do not for a second believe Michael is the kind of person who would make that compromise based on what we've seen in the books.
--- Quote ---I have presented reasons why Michael wouldn't have evidence that it is true. I have also stated that one of my preferred theories is that Michael did not know he was wrong during Proven Guilty, and only found out later. I have presented evidence that Michael has said that the Fallen have deceived the Church about information before--are you claiming that he was lying then? :)
--- End quote ---
I am claiming that, he makes his own judgments of whether the information he finds is true or not, with the knowledge that sometimes the Church's information is not accurate.
He is, again, a smart man. If there's a possibility that his information was wrong, do you believe he would not have even tried to verify it? If he found some old book that claimed you could get rid of a Shadow by giving up magic, do you think he wouldn't have looked into it? Prayed for guidance? Straight up gone, "Hey, Big Guy, we both know you owe me a solid -- will this help Harry? One lightning bolt for yes, two for no."
--- Quote ---See above.
--- End quote ---
As said, I am as unconvinced that any of those are compelling reasons.
--- Quote ---Michael tells Harry that it was wrong to torture Cassius only to laugh about the subject a moment later. It's not explicitly backtracking, but it certainly undermines his point.
--- End quote ---
Michael still doesn't think it's right, and even afterward Harry has to continue justifying the action. You can see where Michael makes a sort of "clean break," where he goes from, "That was wrong and I don't approve," to, "Well, what's done is done. He's an asshole anyway."
You're right in that it is a contradiction -- but it's not on the scale of him questioning and undermining his own beliefs and advice. He still doesn't think it's right, just that it's funny. There's lots of things that are hilarious but still wrong.
Bottom line, though, if the situation came up again, Michael would not do it himself and offer forgiveness -- just like he does to Nicodemus in Skin Game.
--- Quote ---And what is your response to my claim that he might have believed it at the time, and found out later that he was wrong
--- End quote ---
It's possible, but unlikely; and even if this is the case, his failure to mention it in Small Favor is inconsequential. Whether or not giving up the power removes the Shadow is a moot point because Harry has clearly not given up his power and shows no intention of ever giving up his power.
--- Quote ---or that Michael was lying to himself?
--- End quote ---
I don't see any reason to believe he was, as I said above.
ADDENDUM: Michael doesn't know Charity had any magical power. So whether or not it prevents warlockness is not a factor in his thinking, at least not because of anything Charity's done. I honestly just don't think the two are linked in his mind.
nadia.skylark:
First I'm going to respond to what you're saying, then at the end I'm going to post a couple of explanations that are related but don't fit into my responses.
--- Quote ---Given it's a source we know Michael has gotten information from before, yes, I think it's wrong to disregard. It'd be like saying, "How does Harry know this? And don't say Bob told him."
--- End quote ---
Yeah, fair enough. This is probably what happened.
--- Quote ---If getting rid of a Shadow is a possibility, it is exceedingly rare. I mean, it's probably super rare that a wizard gets a coin in the first place -- most of the wielders we've seen don't appear to have been wizards or sorcerers before they got the coin. My point is not, "Nicodemus doesn't know about it, so it's impossible," the point is, "Nicodemus doesn't consider it a factor because it almost never happens, so he doesn't care enough to bother looking into it. Michael and his ilk, on the other hand really really want a way to remove the Shadow, therefore they'd have looked for it actively."
--- End quote ---
And my point is not "Nicodemus would look into it on his own" it is "Nicodemus would keep track of what the Church believes about the subject, and attempt to prove/disprove their theories, because as a spymaster that's what he does."
--- Quote ---Michael believes it. Harry trusts Michael implicitly -- so to Harry, Michael believing it means that it's trustworthy, because Michael is trustworthy, and to Harry's knowledge -- and ours -- Michael would not tell Harry something that Michael believed would bring Harry to harm.
--- End quote ---
That is an absolutely accurate assessment of why Harry wouldn't question it (even though I like to believe that if he thought about it he would ask how giving up the one thing he has faith in is supposed to help him against the Fallen--but that's beside the point).
--- Quote ---How? Who's putting the gun to Michael's children's heads and forcing him to lie?
--- End quote ---
To play devil's advocate: The White Council, (well, technically a sword rather than a gun). Or what do you think would happen to Molly if Harry took up the coin? Whether she stays with him or leaves, that's not going to be good for her.
In all seriousness, I think this is a fairly remote possibility--I'm more inclined to believe that Michael exaggerated rather than just lied.
--- Quote ---No. When asked, Michael told Harry that to get rid of the shadow, he needs to get rid of his magic.
In the later conversation, Michael is not answering a question, he is making a point about why he thinks Harry still has the Shadow -- because, to Michael's knowledge, Harry has not done the things he knows of to get rid of a Shadow.
--- End quote ---
What I was trying to say here is that if he believed what he said in Proven Guilty and then found evidence disproving it, it is not out of character for him not to mention that evidence unless confronted, just as he conceals his sword but almost certainly would not lie about it when asked.
--- Quote ---If what Michael is saying is a lie and Michael knows it, then Michael telling Harry does not help at all. As you have argued, if Harry tries to get rid of his magic and doesn't get rid of the Shadow, then it will only make things worse.
--- End quote ---
If what Michael is saying is an exaggeration (which I have been calling a lie, but am realizing now that that's not a clear way to talk about it) then giving up his magic would help Harry. If Michael doesn't believe that Harry would give up his magic, then he doesn't need to factor the consequences of Harry doing so into the equation.
--- Quote ---Michael's reaction is clearly disappointed that Harry won't take him up on the offer; there are a number of ways Michael could have given Harry hope without lying if that was the case. There is no indication in the scene that Michael was trying to offer false hope.
If Michael truly did not know a way to get rid of the Shadow, he would have straight up told Harry, "I don't know how. But that doesn't mean there isn't a way, and I will be right there with you helping you through this."
--- End quote ---
This is very true. At this point, I don't believe that Michael did more than exaggerate.
--- Quote ---Not true, because Michael ends the conversation by explicitly and directly confronting Harry with what he will do if Harry succumbs to the coin.
--- End quote ---
Michael acknowledged the possibility intellectually, and knew what his duty was. He didn't necessarily accept it emotionally. If he had, I would think he would have had a stronger emotional reaction to Harry turning down flat the only way he knows to get rid of the shadow. (Of course, he could have just gone home and dealt with his emotions where they wouldn't undermine Harry--we don't know).
--- Quote ---Also not true, because the event they're driving home from is Harry volunteering to train Molly and Michael clearly approving of such an arrangement.
And I don't see anything to indicate Michael considers Harry putting aside his magic to be a higher priority than the risks you say exist if putting aside magic doesn't get rid of the Shadow.
--- End quote ---
If any such prejudice existed, I would expect it to be unconscious. Also, Harry just saved Molly's life, so I would expect Michael to approve of that. As for your second point, see the explanations below.
--- Quote ---In this analogy (and I do not intend this as any judgment or statement on disabilities), you going to and finishing college is analogous to Harry getting rid of the coin. Your learning disability is, if anything, analogous to Lash; the obstacle to doing the thing you want, a thing that you/Harry are well aware of as an obstacle.
Saying the disability is the equivalent of Michael's idea not working is disingenuous, because Michael's idea not working is just not a factor that Michael or Harry are aware about or would be, except in the sense that all plans that anyone ever makes have the unspoken rider of, 'If this works.'
--- End quote ---
Ah. I understand the problem now. The disability is not the equivalent of Michael's idea not working. The equivalent to Michael's idea is my aunt's belief that I can get through college, and the possibility of it not working is why we discussed contingency plans.
On the other hand, thinking it over again, Michael probably would have expected Harry to contact him if he changed his mind about giving up his magic, so he might have saved discussing "what if it goes wrong" for then.
--- Quote ---Nicodemus having no knowledge is not a data point -- it's a lack of one. If Nicodemus had positively claimed Michael was full of crap, that would be one thing -- though I would probably still doubt it, because Nicodemus is a liar who has incentive to lie here.
--- End quote ---
Nicodemus not knowing that it is possible to get rid of a shadow is a data point. Here's why:
If there was a known method to get rid of a shadow, there is a good chance that Nicodemus would know it. As such, the chance of Nicodemus not knowing it is significantly less than 100%.
If there is no known method to get rid of a shadow, then the chance that Nicodemus did not know of one is 100%.
According to my understanding of formal logic, this works out to mean that Nicodemus not knowing the information means that it is more likely that there is no known way to get rid of a shadow than that there is one, based on the information given.
--- Quote ---And how does Harry giving up his magic, retaining the Shadow, resenting Michael for it, and possibly taking up the coin again save Harry's soul?
--- End quote ---
See explanations below.
--- Quote ---I'm saying we have a whole lot of evidence that Michael doesn't lie; and someone who doesn't lie often, has an aversion to lying, and has been shown as visibly uncomfortable when other people lie? They don't lie very well. Michael presents no tells that he's lying. He doesn't hesitate, he doesn't stop to think, he doesn't look away, he just straight up, instantly, tells Harry that there's a way to get rid of a Shadow.
How does he know? In the same scene, he admits that he's known for years that Harry picked up the coin. It only makes sense that -- knowing his friend has a Shadow in his head -- he would look into some way to help him.
--- End quote ---
Good point. This is why I have changed my opinion to believing that what he does here might be exaggeration, but no worse a lie than that.
--- Quote ---I think Michael would posit that lying doesn't save souls; in fact, that lying taints the soul. Lying is, among other things, one of the problems he has with the Denarians in general. I mean, hell, isn't Satan referred to as things like the "lord of lies"? With all that in mind, I do not for a second believe Michael is the kind of person who would make that compromise based on what we've seen in the books.
--- End quote ---
Good point; very possible.
--- Quote ---I am claiming that, he makes his own judgments of whether the information he finds is true or not, with the knowledge that sometimes the Church's information is not accurate.
He is, again, a smart man. If there's a possibility that his information was wrong, do you believe he would not have even tried to verify it? If he found some old book that claimed you could get rid of a Shadow by giving up magic, do you think he wouldn't have looked into it? Prayed for guidance? Straight up gone, "Hey, Big Guy, we both know you owe me a solid -- will this help Harry? One lightning bolt for yes, two for no."
--- End quote ---
I think he does try to verify his information. How successful he is and when he is successful are different questions.
--- Quote ---Michael still doesn't think it's right, and even afterward Harry has to continue justifying the action. You can see where Michael makes a sort of "clean break," where he goes from, "That was wrong and I don't approve," to, "Well, what's done is done. He's an asshole anyway."
You're right in that it is a contradiction -- but it's not on the scale of him questioning and undermining his own beliefs and advice. He still doesn't think it's right, just that it's funny. There's lots of things that are hilarious but still wrong.
--- End quote ---
I don't mean that he should undermine what he has said. I mean that he could say "I'm 95% certain of this" rather than "I'm 100% certain of this."
--- Quote ---ADDENDUM: Michael doesn't know Charity had any magical power. So whether or not it prevents warlockness is not a factor in his thinking, at least not because of anything Charity's done. I honestly just don't think the two are linked in his mind.
--- End quote ---
Very true.
Explanations:
Why Michael would tell Harry to give up his magic if he were uncertain it would work, given the consequences:
I believe that if Michael thought that Harry would ever willingly give up his magic, then that implies that he didn't understand how important magic is to Harry and how much damage it would do for him to give it up. As such, either Michael did not expect Harry to give up his magic, in which case he wouldn't have any reason to consider the consequences if Harry did so; or Michael was missing information that would have told him how dire the consequences might be, and as such could not make an accurate assessment of the risks.
On Michael exaggerating:
As I've said before, there is no evidence apart from Michael's word that Harry giving up his magic would destroy the shadow. There is, however, evidence that Harry giving up his magic would weaken the shadow's hold on him--the way hellfire ties into the shadow's influence. Hellfire is clearly a vector for the shadow to influence Harry. In the same book we see Harry using hellfire, we see the first negative effects the shadow has on Harry's mood. Further, the shadow can only interact with Harry's conscious mind once Harry has used hellfire consciously. Just as Mab prevented Harry from using fire magic because summer fire was entwined with it and would let Summer find him, Michael might believe that Harry needs to stop using magic in order to weaken/eliminate the shadow's influence on him, even if it doesn't destroy the shadow.
Mira:
--- Quote ---If getting rid of a Shadow is a possibility, it is exceedingly rare. I mean, it's probably super rare that a wizard gets a coin in the first place -- most of the wielders we've seen don't appear to have been wizards or sorcerers before they got the coin. My point is not, "Nicodemus doesn't know about it, so it's impossible," the point is, "Nicodemus doesn't consider it a factor because it almost never happens, so he doesn't care enough to bother looking into it. Michael and his ilk, on the other hand really really want a way to remove the Shadow, therefore they'd have looked for it actively."
--- End quote ---
Nic doesn't know, and in fact he believes it impossible... Evidence of this is on the island in Small Favor Nic actually calls out with confidence to Lasciel's shadow to take over Harry and is shocked when Harry tells him that she is no longer at home.
--- Quote ---
I believe that if Michael thought that Harry would ever willingly give up his magic, then that implies that he didn't understand how important magic is to Harry and how much damage it would do for him to give it up. As such, either Michael did not expect Harry to give up his magic, in which case he wouldn't have any reason to consider the consequences if Harry did so; or Michael was missing information that would have told him how dire the consequences might be, and as such could not make an accurate assessment of the risks.
--- End quote ---
He understands, thus the depth of the sacrifice would bring the reward, the end of the shadow..
--- Quote ---As I've said before, there is no evidence apart from Michael's word that Harry giving up his magic would destroy the shadow. There is, however, evidence that Harry giving up his magic would weaken the shadow's hold on him--the way hellfire ties into the shadow's influence. Hellfire is clearly a vector for the shadow to influence Harry. In the same book we see Harry using hellfire, we see the first negative effects the shadow has on Harry's mood. Further, the shadow can only interact with Harry's conscious mind once Harry has used hellfire consciously. Just as Mab prevented Harry from using fire magic because summer fire was entwined with it and would let Summer find him, Michael might believe that Harry needs to stop using magic in order to weaken/eliminate the shadow's influence on him, even if it doesn't destroy the shadow.
--- End quote ---
Key word here, evidence... Michael is a man of faith, he doesn't work on evidence, he works on his faith in the Almighty... His sincere belief is that if Harry sacrificed his magic with the help of the Almighty, he be rid of the shadow... For him it isn't about logic or evidence, it is about faith.. You can go on and on about this and that, but for Michael it is a very simple truth...
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---He understands, thus the depth of the sacrifice would bring the reward, the end of the shadow..
--- End quote ---
I refuse to believe this on the basis that if TWG genuinely demanded that Harry destroy an essential part of himself and also much of his capacity for helping people purely because it would be a sacrifice in order to rid Harry of the shadow, then He would definitely not be a good guy, and I'm confident that Jim is writing TWG as the good guy.
It would be different if Harry was giving up his magic to save someone's life/soul or something, but he clearly wouldn't be in this scenario.
--- Quote ---Key word here, evidence... Michael is a man of faith, he doesn't work on evidence, he works on his faith in the Almighty... His sincere belief is that if Harry sacrificed his magic with the help of the Almighty, he be rid of the shadow... For him it isn't about logic or evidence, it is about faith.. You can go on and on about this and that, but for Michael it is a very simple truth...
--- End quote ---
Yes, but even faith has some basis. This is why Michael believes in TWG, but not in fire breathing pink elephants.
Evidence is usually a pretty good basis for believing something. I'm saying "this might be why he believes it"; other reasons might be "because TWG/his messengers said so" or "because the Church said so."
Mira:
--- Quote ---Yes, but even faith has some basis. This is why Michael believes in TWG, but not in fire breathing pink elephants.
--- End quote ---
No, it doesn't... That is the whole point, when something is taken on faith it isn't taken on any material basis at all... It really doesn't matter whether Michael's faith is in the Almighty or pink elephants, it's the belief that counts....
--- Quote ---I refuse to believe this on the basis that if TWG genuinely demanded that Harry destroy an essential part of himself and also much of his capacity for helping people purely because it would be a sacrifice in order to rid Harry of the shadow, then He would definitely not be a good guy, and I'm confident that Jim is writing TWG as the good guy.
It would be different if Harry was giving up his magic to save someone's life/soul or something, but he clearly wouldn't be in this scenario.
--- End quote ---
But Michael does see Harry as a good man, with or without his power, he'd still be a good man... As to giving up his power to save lives or souls, if Harry failed to rid himself of the shadow, how many do you think he'd kill? He came very close to losing it and killing innocents because he thought he had a handle on the shadow as it is, he was fooling himself.. Also who is to say that if he gave up his power to rid himself of the shadow that Harry could have become an effective Holy Knight, or save people in other ways. Michael would simply have said it was all the plan of the Almighty and not for mere mortals to question.
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