The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Did Michael lie?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on February 28, 2019, 06:54:05 PM ---...What? I said "you'd think if Nicodemus knew that the Church knew of a way to destroy a shadow, he'd try to get rid of the information"; you said "Nicodemus seems completely unaware of any possibility that a shadow could be gotten rid of, and furthermore Lash agrees with him"; then I said "You're right. And given that both Nicodemus and Lash should have far more information on how shadows work, this is evidence that either getting rid of one's magic does not rid oneself of the shadow or that no one has ever done so successfully." This is the equivalent of saying "Mab says that she has the ability to change Harry as her Knight. But Uriel says she doesn't. Because Uriel can be supposed to know more about the subject than Mab does, this is evidence that Mab is wrong."
--- End quote ---
It really works the other way.
"Mab says that she has the ability to change Harry as her Knight." == Nicodemus and Lash think you can't get rid of a Shadow
"But Uriel says she doesn't." == Michael says he knows a way for Harry to get rid of the Shadow.
Michael is allowed to have information that Nicodemus and Lash do not. He is literally someone to talks to a direct agent of an omniscient source of information, after all. Plus? Michael and his people have incentive to figure out ways to get rid of a Shadow, while Nicodemus and Lash do not.
Put it this way -- if you wanted information on how to get clean of drugs, would you ask a medical professional who's never done drugs, or your dealer?
--- Quote ---It's relevant because Michael's source(s) has an effect on the validity of this information. There's a distinct difference between him believing the information because it's a long-held church theory, believing it because he personally disapproves of magic, believing it because it's something Tessa mentioned in a fight, and believing it because the archangel Gabriel came down and told him. And if Harry knew Michael's sources, it has a good chance of affecting whether he believed the information.
--- End quote ---
None of that speaks to whether Michael believes what he is saying is true. That's the measure of whether Michael's a liar, isn't it? Whether he believes what the thing he's saying is true?
Someone who's a Flat Earther might be hilariously wrong about the nature of the world, but if he or she believes what they're saying is true, that means they're not a liar -- stupid, misguided and misinformed, yes, but not a liar.
Michael is trustworthy, and he's smart. He's not some credulous soccer mom who's going to repeat as gospel something he saw on Facebook; I think we can assume that if Michael is saying something is true with confident, he is in turn confident that his source was truthful.
--- Quote ---...You don't understand how lying works, do you?
--- End quote ---
Yes. And I understand that it's not a thing Michael does. It's one of the central tenets of his character.
--- Quote ---Michael also carries a concealed weapon on a regular basis. He may be uncomfortable when called on it, but he is willing to conceal information in service to a higher good.
--- End quote ---
Betcha a dollar that he doesn't lie about it when he's asked. Hell, when he's literally about to be arrested at the start of Grave Peril, his reaction is to keep his Sword where it can be seen and tell the truth.
And here's a question: What is the "higher good" served by this supposed lie? As you have pointed out, at length, if Michael is wrong, if getting rid of Harry's magic doesn't get rid of the Shadow, then it's nothing but bad news for everybody involved.
So, again, why on Earth would Michael lie about it?
--- Quote ---The tangible, objective factor here is that Harry has the shadow--they're talking about what to do about that.
--- End quote ---
You're moving the goalposts. Yes, they're talking about the Shadow. The non-factor is that getting rid of Harry's magic won't work. That is the thing that neither of them have reason to think about.
--- Quote ---The possibility that Harry giving up his magic would not work is supported by evidence in the text. Michael claims it will. Nicodemus, as you pointed out, has clearly never heard of the possibility. Michael also says that no one has gotten rid of a shadow without taking up the coin. That is all the evidence for and against the position.
--- End quote ---
Show me where in the books anybody positively says, "it won't work." Show me where that position is addressed in that manner.
The only data point we have on, "Will giving up Harry's magic get rid of the Shadow?" is Michael's assertion that it would work.
We do not have any data points on someone trying it and it not working.
We do not have any data points of someone saying that it doesn't work, anecdotally or otherwise.
--- Quote ---I disagree with this.
--- End quote ---
Why? What, in any of Michael's characterization throughout the whole series, makes you think he's a liar?
Michael is trustworthy. He's so trustworthy the bad guys trust him to tell the truth and keep his word without hesitation.
--- Quote ---This, so far as I can tell, is a circular argument: Michael didn't lie in this instance because he doesn't lie ever, and we know he doesn't lie ever because there is no instance in which he lies.
--- End quote ---
Well, yes? That's how "not being a liar" works, because if you're not a liar, there aren't instances where you lie.
We've Michael him in situations where he's been asked to lie and he explicitly refused to; we've seen him in situations where others have lied on his behalf and he's been uncomfortable about it. We've seen him presented with lies from various sources and his response has always been some variation on, "Lying is wrong, I don't do it and you shouldn't either."
So, Michael doesn't lie. When he says something as if he believes it to be true, then he believes it to be true. So far, the only thing pointing to Michael being dishonest is your insistence that he must be lying.
--- Quote ---YES I HAVE.[/u] Repeatedly.[/I] This keeps happening. Before you claim that I haven't said something, please re-read the thread, because you keep getting it wrong.
--- End quote ---
You've said why you don't believe it's true.
You haven't presented any proof that Michael has evidence it's not true when he speaks in Proven Guilty. There's a possible inference that he learned he was wrong by the time of Small Favor, but that is by no means evidence that he was wrong and knew he was wrong in Proven Guilty.
You haven't presented anyone having told Michael it's not true at any point.
You haven't presented any compelling reason for Michael to say this thing to Harry if he believed it wasn't true -- in fact, you've presented a lot of reasons why Michael wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.
So, again, what is the "good reason" for Michael to take an action that you yourself have argued is going to end badly for everyone involved?
The most I've seen amounts to reasons you think it might not be true, based on a very specific reading of the two dialogs that seems predicated more on your own personal views of how people should talk than it does on how any of the characters have ever behaved.
--- Quote ---I'm saying that there is no evidence that he is right apart from the claim he himself is making.
--- End quote ---
And there's no evidence that he's wrong. There is, again, a possible inference that he might be wrong, but no evidence.
And the question of the thread was not "is Michael objectively right and able to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt."
The question is, "Did Michael lie?" Right there at the top of the page.
--- Quote ---He "hems and haws" about trusting Harry. He doubts Harry. You can't claim that he's not capable of doubting and concealing information when we see him do so in the books.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, I didn't say he was not capable of doubting; I said he's ruled by faith, not doubt. I said that when he says something, it's because he believes it to be true.
He worries about and doubts Harry because -- as Harry acknowledges -- Harry gives him tangible, direct reasons to have doubts.
I see no tangible, direct reason for Michael to doubt the thing that he himself is saying as true.
--- Quote ---I am expecting Michael to speak accurately and behave like the character that I believe we have been shown (not the one that you believe we have been shown, clearly) based on clear concerns that he himself brought up, and possibilities that absolutely could reasonably be expected to factor into his thinking.
--- End quote ---
Show me another place in the series where Michael gives advice to someone, then immediately backtracks and says why his own advice that he just gave is bad.
Because that's what you're suggesting Michael should have done. It doesn't sound like anything Michael's done that I can recall.
--- Quote ---You apparently think that Michael has some intellectus for truth and to be inhumanly perfect, while at the same time gratuitously leaving information out of his statements such that they are inaccurate.
--- End quote ---
No, that's not what I think at all. Hell, that's closer to what you seem to think -- that Michael knew for a fact that his own information was wrong, knew exactly what information he didn't have, and gave advice he knew to be wrong.
As I have said, repeatedly, I think that when Michael says something as if it's a fact, he believes that to be a fact.
You seem to be operating under the impression that not-lying is synonymous with being objectively correct and able to prove it. That's just not what the term means. I don't think Michael is wrong; but even if he is wrong, he's still not "lying" by saying what he thinks is true.
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---"Mab says that she has the ability to change Harry as her Knight." == Nicodemus and Lash think you can't get rid of a Shadow
"But Uriel says she doesn't." == Michael says he knows a way for Harry to get rid of the Shadow.
Because, you know, Michael is allowed to have information that Nicodemus and Lash do not. He is literally someone to talks to a direct agent of an omniscient source of information, after all. Plus? Michael and his people have incentive to figure out ways to get rid of a Shadow, while Nicodemus and Lash do not.
--- End quote ---
Yes, Michael is allowed to have information that Nicodemus does not. (I have significant doubts that he could have information on this topic that Lash does not, considering what she is, but she doesn't say that it's impossible to be rid of the shadow in such a way--only that no one has ever held out against a shadow for as long as Harry.) Yes, Michael is allowed to be told things by TWG and their agents. I have explicitly brought up the possibility and stated that I was, for purely personal and subjective reasons, I was disregarding it. Since no one said anything about it, I had assumed that others were doing the same for the purposes of this discussion. If your claim is that I am wrong to disregard it, please say so and I will stop arguing the point.
Absent the above point, however, Nicodemus has far more reason to know anything about the shadows than Michael, based on the information he has access to. And I would argue that he does have an incentive to keep track of other people's theories about what could get rid of the shadow in order to either make sure they don't work or see that they are forgotten/discredited.
--- Quote ---None of that speaks to whether Michael believes what he is saying is true. That's the measure of whether Michael's a liar, isn't it? Whether he believes what the thing he's saying is true?
Someone who's a Flat Earther might be hilariously wrong about the nature of the world, but if he or she believes what they're saying is true, that means they're not a liar -- stupid, misguided and misinformed, yes, but not a liar.
--- End quote ---
It speaks to whether a reasonable person would believe it utterly, believe it's probably true, believe it might be true, or disbelieve it. I do not believe that Michael is stupid; I do believe that he is reasonable. I do also believe that Michael is capable of lying to himself about how high the chances are because he genuinely cares about Harry and doesn't want him to give in to the Fallen.
--- Quote ---Yes. And I understand that it's not a thing Michael does. It's one of the central tenets of his character.
--- End quote ---
And Michael forgives people--it's a central tenet of his character. That does not mean that he wouldn't have chosen vengeance against that priest guy who kidnapped his daughter without Harry's help--we have that from Uriel. The fact that Michael generally does not lie does not mean that he would not do so under extraordinary circumstances, and I am arguing that these circumstances are extraordinary.
--- Quote ---Betcha a dollar that he doesn't lie about it when he's asked. Hell, when he's literally about to be arrested at the start of Grave Peril, his reaction is to keep his Sword where it can be seen and tell the truth.
--- End quote ---
By this measure, he did tell Harry that there was no way to get rid of the shadow without taking up the coin when asked (this is support for the "lie of omission" theory, not any of the others).
--- Quote ---And here's a question: What is the "higher good" served by this supposed lie? As you have pointed out, at length, if Michael is wrong, if getting rid of Harry's magic doesn't get rid of the Shadow, then it's nothing but bad news for everybody involved.
So, again, why on Earth would Michael lie about it?
--- End quote ---
Because Michael believes that it will help, just not as much as he says, because Michael believes that Harry never will take him up on it and believes that it is important that Harry have hope that there is some way of getting rid of the shadow, because Michael is lying to himself instead of Harry and doesn't emotionally face the real probability that Harry will be corrupted until he talks to Sanya about it in Small Favor, or because he hasn't quite gotten over the issues he had with magic in Small Favor and believes that Harry's magic is inherently corruptive/leaves him more vulnerable to corruption (if this last is true, then I believe that he got over it after watching Molly's training).
There are plenty of reasons.
--- Quote ---You're moving the goalposts. Yes, they're talking about the Shadow. The non-factor is that getting rid of Harry's magic won't work. That is the thing that neither of them have reason to think about.
--- End quote ---
Can you explain this? I genuinely don't understand either how I'm moving the goalposts or (inclusive or) why Michael has no reason to consider that it might not work (or why Harry would not have had reason to consider it if he'd thought about it for more that two seconds).
--- Quote ---Show me where in the books anybody positively says, "it won't work." Show me where that position is addressed in that manner.
The only data point we have on, "Will giving up Harry's magic get rid of the Shadow?" is Michael's assertion that it would work.
We do not have any data points on someone trying it and it not working.
We do not have any data points of someone saying that it doesn't work, anecdotally or otherwise.
--- End quote ---
We have Michael claiming that it would work. We have Nicodemus having no knowledge that it is possible at all for someone to get rid of a shadow, which I have said is another data point (since if it could be done, there's a good chance that Nicodemus would know about it. We have no evidence of it failing or succeeding. I personally consider the odds of it working to be 60-40 against, but you probably calculate them differently.
--- Quote ---Why? What, in any of Michael's characterization throughout the whole series, makes you think he's a liar?
--- End quote ---
The part where Michael prioritizes saving souls above all else. My argument is, and always has been, that Michael would be willing to lie only for the purpose of saving a soul.
--- Quote ---Well, yes? That's how "not being a liar" works, because if you're not a liar, there aren't instances where you lie.
--- End quote ---
The problem is that I'm saying "well here is a place where he might have lied" and you are saying "he didn't lie there because he doesn't lie ever" when if I'm correct and he did lie there it would invalidate the claim that he doesn't lie ever. That is why I am calling it a circular argument.
--- Quote ---We've Michael him in situations where he's been asked to lie and he explicitly refused to; we've seen him in situations where others have lied on his behalf and he's been uncomfortable about it. We've seen him presented with lies from various sources and his response has always been some variation on, "Lying is wrong, I don't do it and you shouldn't either."
So, Michael doesn't lie. When he says something as if he believes it to be true, then he believes it to be true. So far, the only thing pointing to Michael being dishonest is your insistence that he must be lying.
--- End quote ---
We have never seen Michael in a position where he must lie in order to save a soul, and instead tells the truth. We have seen him do things which he is uncomfortable with to serve a higher good. We have seen him deliberately omit facts when telling Harry things. This is circumstantial evidence, yes, but while it exists it provides support for the possibility that Michael might have lied.
--- Quote ---You haven't presented any proof that Michael has evidence it's not true when he speaks in Proven Guilty. There's a possible inference that he learned he was wrong by the time of Small Favor, but that is by no means evidence that he was wrong and knew he was wrong in Proven Guilty.
You haven't presented anyone having told Michael it's not true at any point.
--- End quote ---
I have presented reasons why Michael wouldn't have evidence that it is true. I have also stated that one of my preferred theories is that Michael did not know he was wrong during Proven Guilty, and only found out later. I have presented evidence that Michael has said that the Fallen have deceived the Church about information before--are you claiming that he was lying then? :)
--- Quote ---You haven't presented any compelling reason for Michael to say this thing to Harry if he believed it wasn't true -- in fact, you've presented a lot of reasons why Michael wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.
So, again, what is the "good reason" for Michael to take an action that you yourself have argued is going to end badly for everyone involved?
--- End quote ---
See above.
--- Quote ---Show me another place in the series where Michael gives advice to someone, then immediately backtracks and says why his own advice that he just gave is bad.
Because that's what you're suggesting Michael should have done. It doesn't sound like anything Michael's done that I can recall.
--- End quote ---
Michael tells Harry that it was wrong to torture Cassius only to laugh about the subject a moment later. It's not explicitly backtracking, but it certainly undermines his point.
--- Quote ---As I have said, repeatedly, I think that when Michael says something as if it's a fact, he believes that to be a fact.
--- End quote ---
And what is your response to my claim that he might have believed it at the time, and found out later that he was wrong, or that Michael was lying to himself?
Mira:
--- Quote from: nadia.skylark on February 28, 2019, 07:46:42 PM ---But why does Michael have faith that giving up his magic will save Harry from the shadow? (As opposed to, say, having faith that Harry's good works will save him, or having faith that Harry converting to Christianity will save him, or having faith that if Harry falls in love that it will save him, or... He has to have a reason, is my point.)
--- End quote ---
For one thing it would be a real sacrifice on Harry's part, as I said it saved Charity from being a warlock. It really doesn't matter, it is a sincere belief on Michael's part, and he sincerely wants to help his friend. Faith isn't logical, it is what it is and Michael has more of it than almost anyone.
It is said that faith can move mountains... If I sincerely have faith that it can and tell you that, am I lying?
nadia.skylark:
--- Quote ---For one thing it would be a real sacrifice on Harry's part,
--- End quote ---
True. But Harry makes a real sacrifice by endangering his life helping people rather than using his talents to make him rich and comfortable.
--- Quote ---as I said it saved Charity from being a warlock.
--- End quote ---
Corruption from the Fallen =/= corruption from black magic. But I suppose it could be Michael's thought process, sure.
--- Quote ---It really doesn't matter, it is a sincere belief on Michael's part, and he sincerely wants to help his friend. Faith isn't logical, it is what it is and Michael has more of it than almost anyone.
--- End quote ---
Faith may not be logical, but unless you're crazy then beliefs generally have some basis. It might just be the black magic warlock thing, though.
Although, if that's the case, you would think that seeing Molly reform after having used black magic would encourage Michael to believe that Harry could get rid of the shadow without giving up his magic. Maybe not, though--I doubt he wants to think of anything his kids have done as being equivalent to touching a Denarian coin, so it might not have occurred to him.
nadia.skylark:
Sorry for the double post. I thought I'd post what likelihood I think each of my theories has of being right, since I realize that my posts here probably sound like I'm not changing my mind at all.
45%: Michael believes what he said because he was told by TWG/his messengers, even though it's never happened.
20%: Michael sincerely believes what he told Harry in Proven Guilty, but finds out at a later date that it is false, and can't bring himself to tell Harry.
15%: Michael is lying to himself about the chances of success of his proposal in Proven Guilty, up until he has a talk with Sanya during/just before Small Favor.
10%: Michael is upset enough during Small Favor that he just misspeaks slightly, and there have in fact been examples of the shadow being gotten rid of by giving up one's magic.
5%: Michael was lying to Harry because, having soulgazed Harry, he knows that it is unlikely in the extreme that Harry would give up his magic but feels it is important to believe that there is some way to rid himself of the shadow without taking up the coin.
5%: Theories I mentioned earlier, but don't remember at the moment.
Like I said earlier, I'm ignoring the first possibility for purely subjective reasons, but objectively it's the one with the greatest likelihood of truth.
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