Author Topic: Lea and the Adversary  (Read 1243 times)

Online Mira

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2019, 09:30:09 PM »
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She did not fight it so Mab could not help her.

   Actually we do not know that.. 

Offline Arjan

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2019, 10:16:46 PM »
   Actually we do not know that..
The quotes from Cold Days point in that direction. Sarissa is no dummy.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2019, 11:35:21 PM »
Lea is off at the best of times.  However in terms of how the infection was spread the text is explicit.
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"It was the knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone--but her eyes were far away.
"The one given her by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade.  That was how the Leanasidhe was tainted--and your Godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
It's about power.  It's likely that Maeve was infected at or around Summer Knight.  With the Winter Knight, Maeve, and Lea off the board Mab was isolated.  It drives the story line.  Grave Peril is ten or so years in the past in Harry time by Cold Days.  During that time Mab has been weak.  Proven Guilty and Small Favor  are driven by that.  She isn't acting, she's reacting.  She can't go on offense because her board is weak.  She may have traitors within and Summer may still be compromised.

Lea reenters the story in in Changes, Harry becomes the Winter Knight.  Whatever Harry's reason for the events of Changes this is the beginning of Mab's vengeance.  Lea gets to balance the scales for Winter and herself.  Cold Days  fills the board. With Molly as Winter Lady and Sarissa as the Summer Lady.  And this completes the Winter Arc.

Online Mira

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2019, 02:09:50 AM »
Lea is off at the best of times.  However in terms of how the infection was spread the text is explicit.It's about power.  It's likely that Maeve was infected at or around Summer Knight.  With the Winter Knight, Maeve, and Lea off the board Mab was isolated.  It drives the story line.  Grave Peril is ten or so years in the past in Harry time by Cold Days.  During that time Mab has been weak.  Proven Guilty and Small Favor  are driven by that.  She isn't acting, she's reacting.  She can't go on offense because her board is weak.  She may have traitors within and Summer may still be compromised.

Lea reenters the story in in Changes, Harry becomes the Winter Knight.  Whatever Harry's reason for the events of Changes this is the beginning of Mab's vengeance.  Lea gets to balance the scales for Winter and herself.  Cold Days  fills the board. With Molly as Winter Lady and Sarissa as the Summer Lady.  And this completes the Winter Arc.

No, I think Mab believes that Maeve was infected by the Knife, now Aurora is another story, she was infected just before Summer Knight.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2019, 04:35:05 AM »
I have ideas about Aurora but there is nothing directly in the text, except Titania's remark about knowing what she had become. 

Since Mab is allied with the Gatekeeper, she more than anyone other than the Gatekeeper, should be able to spot something like that.  So I consider it gospel that the infection occurred the way she suggested.

The torture of Lea may have been as much about finding out who else might have been infected as curing her. And this could be how Maeve is uncovered.  And Lea suggested in Changes that it isn't completely gone.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2019, 07:51:05 AM »
I have ideas about Aurora but there is nothing directly in the text, except Titania's remark about knowing what she had become. 

Since Mab is allied with the Gatekeeper, she more than anyone other than the Gatekeeper, should be able to spot something like that.  So I consider it gospel that the infection occurred the way she suggested.

The torture of Lea may have been as much about finding out who else might have been infected as curing her. And this could be how Maeve is uncovered.  And Lea suggested in Changes that it isn't completely gone.
That was yet another reason for Mab to save Lea, her value as a source of information. How important that is was shown by the attack on arctic tor.
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Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 04:32:34 AM »
Lea is Mab's "trusted enemy." I can't remember which book this originates from, but Harry later says he can be Mab's trusted enemy, like Lea. Mab responds that she won't/can't ever trust Harry. Therefore, it is likely that Lea would try to supplant Mab if she thought she could.

I don't know if it is ever stated explicitly by anyone other than Harry, but it is stated that after Mab found out about Maeve's infection, her voice injured mortals. If this is the case, Mab didn't find out until after Dead Beat.

Lea was probably at the Battle of the Stone Table. Her absence would have been noticed and she did strongly imply that she was going to be there.

I think that she warned Harry away from the Stone Table, and thus becoming the Winter Knight, because she was obligated to as his spiritual director.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2019, 12:29:03 PM »
What ever the nature of Lea's debt to Margaret, she has never been as forthcoming as she is in that passage. However that's my WAG and it isn't well supported. And I'm grasping at straws.

Offline prince lotore

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2019, 07:18:51 PM »
I have always believed that the infection was giving them a soul.  It would explain how it allows the fey to go against their nature and why people like harry haven't been targeted. I know people think victor was infected but it looked to me like a power hungry guy who got easily corrupted.  why corrupt 4 FBI agents with wolf pelts when you could infect the entire bureau.  Why wouldn't lord wraith infect his son to get him to fall in line and give in to his demon and while he is at it get harry. 
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Online Mira

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2019, 08:17:47 PM »
I have always believed that the infection was giving them a soul.  It would explain how it allows the fey to go against their nature and why people like harry haven't been targeted. I know people think victor was infected but it looked to me like a power hungry guy who got easily corrupted.  why corrupt 4 FBI agents with wolf pelts when you could infect the entire bureau.  Why wouldn't lord wraith infect his son to get him to fall in line and give in to his demon and while he is at it get harry.

Too obvious....  It is kind of like what Madeline Albright  says how fascism take hold.. She likens it to plucking a chicken feather by feather.  Do it all at once, it gets noticed and stopped, but do it feather by feather, no one notices until it is too late and the chicken is naked.. 

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2019, 08:30:09 PM »
@morriswalters: Lea is Harry's godmother and must do whatever that entails. I considered going through the books and getting everything people say about what a godmother is, but I figured it would keep me up too late. My first thoughts were what Aurora says in Summer Knight and what Lea says in Ghost Story about education. There are other tidbits here and there, but I doubt I could remember them all.

@prince lotore: I think the infection isn't that easy to spread. I think every instance of someone doing bad/outsider friendly things isn't because they are infected. I also think humans can be infected. Lily definitely believed humans could be infected, but she also believed she could detect it so that doesn't give us a definitive answer. I do think Maeve didn't lie about everything because that would make it easier to find out she could lie. Also, Harry was cautioned against using the name Nemesis because it could draw its attention. Now I imagine that would be bad whether or not Nemesis could infect humans because it would make Nemesis aware that Harry was aware of it, but Nemesis is already aware of Harry and that he knows of Nemesis by the time he learns the name.

As to Mira's point, the way Nemesis operates is a lot like how Peabody operated in mind controlling everybody. He did it subtly except where it couldn't be observed or when he had already been caught. Not being noticed is the whole point of using covert instead of overt methods.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2019, 09:35:38 PM »
Godmothers succor children.  Lea got onboard when Harry is effectively was an adult.  And then she bound him in various forms of debt and obligation.  But never has she spoken directly in terms of knowledge that has power without making Harry pay the piper.  Which was why I thought she might be infected in Summer Knight.

My model for the infection is the coins.  Touch them and you are infected.  But insidiously.  Much in the same vein of Harry and Lash.

Online Mira

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2019, 11:33:12 PM »
Godmothers succor children.  Lea got onboard when Harry is effectively was an adult.  And then she bound him in various forms of debt and obligation.  But never has she spoken directly in terms of knowledge that has power without making Harry pay the piper.  Which was why I thought she might be infected in Summer Knight.

My model for the infection is the coins.  Touch them and you are infected.  But insidiously.  Much in the same vein of Harry and Lash.

No, long before that, she made a promise to Harry's mother to protect him...  Now if the Enemy knows he is a star born it makes sense that they'd try to infect and pervert her to get to Harry.  Also consider her actions which frightened Harry to such a degree that he'd grab Michael's Sword and try to kill her, thus losing it to her.. Now she had something to bring to the party, gain the Knife and in the process a Holy Sword would be unmade.. Yeah, I seriously doubt that Lea didn't know what would happen to the Sword once she gave it up..   More evidence that her mind was being affected, long before she had the Knife in her possession..

Offline segaily

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 12:22:01 AM »
No, long before that, she made a promise to Harry's mother to protect him...  Now if the Enemy knows he is a star born it makes sense that they'd try to infect and pervert her to get to Harry.  Also consider her actions which frightened Harry to such a degree that he'd grab Michael's Sword and try to kill her, thus losing it to her.. Now she had something to bring to the party, gain the Knife and in the process a Holy Sword would be unmade.. Yeah, I seriously doubt that Lea didn't know what would happen to the Sword once she gave it up..   More evidence that her mind was being affected, long before she had the Knife in her possession..

While I agree with the first part of this that if the Enemy knows he is a star born it makes sense that they'd try to infect and pervert Lea.  I would not however take Lea's attempt to get the sword as evidence of anything.  The sword is primarily a weapon against the fallen not outsiders.  Winter fights outsiders not fallen why would winter or Lea care if the fallen gain an advantage as long as they were getting something they considered just as good or better. 

Lea could have even considered it her duty to help Harry to learn a lesson and that he should have known he did not need try the sword. 

Online Mira

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Re: Lea and the Adversary
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 05:24:22 AM »
While I agree with the first part of this that if the Enemy knows he is a star born it makes sense that they'd try to infect and pervert Lea.  I would not however take Lea's attempt to get the sword as evidence of anything.  The sword is primarily a weapon against the fallen not outsiders.  Winter fights outsiders not fallen why would winter or Lea care if the fallen gain an advantage as long as they were getting something they considered just as good or better. 

Lea could have even considered it her duty to help Harry to learn a lesson and that he should have known he did not need try the sword.

Advantage was using Lea as a cat's paw to gain further access to the Winter Court though the Knife.
While Lea would think as you say, all the while she was being used for a greater goal, infiltration of the Winter Court, it's principle foe..