The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

is there power ranking thread on heavyweight characters? curious about Ivy

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huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: Bad Alias on January 04, 2019, 08:28:50 PM ---I think you're missing my point entirely. Let's say it takes 10 points of magic energy for Harry to do a 2 points of damage when he is 25 with a fire spell and he can use 100 points of energy before he passes out. Through refinement of his technique when he is 35, it only takes him 5 points of energy to do the same spell because he is only wasting 3 points instead of 8. He could double the energy he puts into the spell or do twice as many spells. But he could still only have access to 100 points of energy. Now the point system is just something I made up to use as an example.

What I'm saying is I think the vast majority of Dresden's regular increase in power is an increase in efficiency, not his being able to move more power. I think the amount of energy he can channel (without augmentation like ley lines, being on Demonreach, mantles, etc.) is probably pretty inelastic. Dresden repeatedly points out that he is more efficient with the power he has, that he will be more efficient with years of experience, and that those older wizards aren't really any more powerful than him, maybe even less powerful, but that they know how to use that power more efficiently.

A good example of what I'm talking about is the wards we see in Turn Coat on the lighthouse stones. In Cold Days, Bob says they aren't possible. That Harry couldn't fuel them with his power. Then Demonreach explains them to Bob. Then Bob explains it to Harry. Harry thinks:
Now Dresden is getting stronger in that he is getting access to power he did not have before, like hellfire, soulfire, and the Winter Knight mantle. Those types of enhancements are very unlikely for Ivy.

First off, that's not my claim. I'm not saying a practitioner can't increase their magical muscles by using them. I'm saying I don't think that explains most of Harry's growth as a wizard. Second, it's absurd to say that you, or any reader, knows the mechanics of how a wizard grows in power. We can only guess based on what the books and Jim actually say.

The books say that that the Council doesn't take wizards seriously until they are about 100 years old. That's because it does take a long time to learn how to use magic efficiently. There is a ton of evidence from the books that wizards become more powerful as they age because they become better able to channel energy. There isn't a lot of evidence that it's from simply growing stronger.

Furthermore, Harry doesn't have a lot of training compared to other wizards. Justin didn't finish his training because Harry killed him. Ebenezar didn't teach Harry much magic because he focused on teaching him why to use magic. Harry achieved the status of wizard at 16 by defeating Justin, but since he was a minor, he had to go live with Eb until he was 18. That is a much shorter apprenticeship than most. As Mai points out, Eb wasn't really Harry's master; he was more of Harry's guardian. The point here is that Harry has a lot more to learn than most wizards because they would have learned more as apprentices.

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For a wizard, being able to channel more energy is precisely getting stronger. The books did say that older wizards can do more with less, but the problem is, well, it is just that, only sayings. In the end, we only has Harry as information source. and sample

About the only actual technique we saw applied to amplify power is Luccio's laser trick, but even if such tricks exist we know for a fact that Harry barely use any. At least in the last 15 books, I do not remember anything about Harry understanding something that can for example, amplify his evocation magic or something like that. All we know is as Harry grow older, as he use more and more magic, his spells is getting bigger, deadlier and he can cast it more often and the cool down of his spells is growing shorter. Harry does not learn something like the true name of fire, or learn how combustion works scientifically in order to improve his fire magic.

Energy is a wizard's domain. We don't know what is it exactly a wizard use to summon and control energy, but we do know that the more a wizard cast the same spels the easier it gets. Harry cast a lot of fire magic, so his fire magic gets easier to cast. The thing is, the spells does not get easier because Harry learns the fundementals of how fire is created. The spell gets simply easier because he do more of the same. It is innate and natural. No study is needed, or at least not much of it. The improved efficiency is not the result of understanding techniques or some profound secret art. It simply grow more efficient just like that,  as if the wizard's body and soul is getting more compatible with magical energy.

Using gaming terms, wizards in the DV don't grow stronger by increasing their maximum MP count. They grow stronger by increasing their elemental affinity levels. This affinity does not grow by studying and understanding, at least when it comes to Harry the magic thug, I am confident it is not the case.

When Harry broke Mother winter's will attack, now that what I call understanding turning to actual power. Harry simply has enlightenment about the nature of soulfire, and therefore his power, or his output,  increase. Such a thing does not happened to his regular wizardly magic. Harry simply grow stronger.

Mira:

--- Quote ---When Harry broke Mother winter's will attack, now that what I call understanding turning to actual power. Harry simply has enlightenment about the nature of soulfire, and therefore his power, or his output,  increase. Such a thing does not happened to his regular wizardly magic. Harry simply grow stronger.
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I agree, but I don't think you can separate it out from his magic, it comes from him.  That is the enlightenment, that they came from the same place.

Silentbrick:
It can't be sheer power.  Look at what Hanna Asher is able to do.  She had even less training than Harry, yet her ability to use fire magic is far more focused and powerful in regards to effect, but not in the sheer amount of power Harry can throw.  Hanna only used fire magic, so her affinity with it must be extremely high.  She's sacrificed everything else in order to have that focus.  So Ivy might only have a power pool on the scale of the Senior Council, but in many ways her focus will be sharper than even they can do because she has literally thousands of years of knowledge of HOW to do it.

morriswalters:

--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on January 04, 2019, 12:55:02 AM ---When it's come to Harry, the wizard thug, the claim that his increase prowess throughout the series is attributed completely to the improvement in his knowledge and techniques is absurd. This is Harry, not Elaine.

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--- Quote from: Changes ---Hell, on a good day I’d go along with someone who said that I was one of the top twenty or thirty wizards on the planet, in terms of sheer magical muscle. And my finesse and skill continued to improve. Give me a couple of hundred years and I might be one of the top two or three wizards on the planet.
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The most comparable points in the real world might be between a professional athlete and an amateur.  Assuming they start with identical potential, all the differences and the ultimate limit of their skills stems from practice and conditioning. Whatever Harry was born with in terms of potential is his maximum limit.  How much of that maximum potential he can take advantage of is a product of the effort he puts in to it obtaining it.  This is how I model it.  YMMV

huangjimmy108:

--- Quote from: morriswalters on January 06, 2019, 11:18:38 PM ---The most comparable points in the real world might be between a professional athlete and an amateur.  Assuming they start with identical potential, all the differences and the ultimate limit of their skills stems from practice and conditioning. Whatever Harry was born with in terms of potential is his maximum limit.  How much of that maximum potential he can take advantage of is a product of the effort he puts in to it obtaining it.  This is how I model it.  YMMV

--- End quote ---

Considering there are wizards whom only has a lifespan of 200 and then there are wizards who lived for 400 even 500, there are clearly a gap in potential between individual wizards. The question is whether or not this potential can be develop artificially. The way I see it, it definitely can. The darkhhallow for example, or more precisely the art that allow Kemmler to devour ghost to empower his magic before Kemmler develop the art into the darkhallow. If there is one way to do so, there are definitely more ways to do the same.

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