The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 17, 2018, 05:53:07 PM --- But where does it cross the line? One can argue that making a love potion, though it clearly affects how the drinker thinks and acts, is a gray area because the maker really doesn't go into the drinker's head...
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You could make the same argument for alcohol. Give a person a strong drink and you can take advantage of them quite easily. The love potion in reality is nothing more than mixing intoxication with a powerful aphrodisiac.
Some people use those substances for mutual pleasure, others use it to take advantage of people. Should we ban them all from existence because some people misuse them? Rat poison is used to kill rats but some bad people use it to poison humans. Should we ban that as well?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 17, 2018, 05:53:07 PM --- But where does it cross the line? One can argue that making a love potion, though it clearly affects how the drinker thinks and acts, is a gray area because the maker really doesn't go into the drinker's head... But how about Peabody's ink? One can argue it is really no different from a love potion, but Peabody used it to control or affect most of the White Council, including the Senior Council and Wardens, to the point where any decision made by that body in the past ten years had to be revisited.. That is mind control, Luccio was clearly being controlled by Peabody to do things she would never do, from murdering LaFortier to taking Harry as a lover.. If not outright breaking the 3rd Law, it comes very close to it.
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Peabodies ink just helped Peabody with his mind magic. Peabody invaded minds and changed them, Peabody enthralled wizards. The ink just helped him.
The potion is completely different because the drinker acts himself, it is his own decision.
Mira:
--- Quote from: Arjan on July 17, 2018, 06:15:37 PM ---Peabodies ink just helped Peabody with his mind magic. Peabody invaded minds and changed them, Peabody enthralled wizards. The ink just helped him.
The potion is completely different because the drinker acts himself, it is his own decision.
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Not so fast, if the drinker has no clue as to what he or she is drinking, it isn't his or her own decision... You can say that about the ink, Harry chose not to sign any paperwork Peabody presented him.. However that wasn't because he chose not to be influenced by the ink, ergo Peabody couldn't get into his mind.. Susan didn't chose to drink the love potion either, it was a mistake, if events hadn't gone down as they did, or if Harry had been a jerk, he could have taken full advantage of her, even made her his love slave if he continued to slip it to her...
Arjan:
--- Quote from: Mira on July 18, 2018, 03:50:00 AM --- Not so fast, if the drinker has no clue as to what he or she is drinking, it isn't his or her own decision... You can say that about the ink, Harry chose not to sign any paperwork Peabody presented him.. However that wasn't because he chose not to be influenced by the ink, ergo Peabody couldn't get into his mind.. Susan didn't chose to drink the love potion either, it was a mistake, if events hadn't gone down as they did, or if Harry had been a jerk, he could have taken full advantage of her, even made her his love slave if he continued to slip it to her...
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The ink was never described as a potion, more like a material component of a spell. The ink on itself did nothing, it just made Peabodies work easier. It is more like Harry’s blasting rod. The ink would have no effect if Peabody was not around doing his magic.
--- Quote ---A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.
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The potion is different. We were discussing selling it as a drug which you can do only if you tell what it does, if you advertise it. It works without Harry even there.
It works more like the hexenwulf belts though I don’t think you get possessed by a spirit of lust. It brings a layer of isolation between you and the target of the magic, takes away the choice from you to that target.
It was not said with so many words but I did not get the impression that those belts were illegal. It was not the white council who stopped it.
--- Quote ---"Hexenwolf," Bob said, with a strong Germanic accent. "Spell wolf. The Church declared war on anyone who chose to become a Hexenwolf, and burned a huge number of people at the stake."
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Those things matter with the laws, not morals. If you talk about the laws of magic and you bring morality into it you just confuse matters. The laws of magic don’t stop you being a jerk or abuse people, they just bring limitations how to do it.
You can always summon a Fairy and bargain to let it do the law breaking, completely legal.
Mira:
--- Quote ---The ink was never described as a potion, more like a material component of a spell. The ink on itself did nothing, it just made Peabodies work easier. It is more like Harry’s blasting rod. The ink would have no effect if Peabody was not around doing his magic.
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However he couldn't do it at all without the ink.. The ink did a lot, it made whoever got some on them vulnerable to Peabody's mind magic. That is why he tried so hard to get Harry to sign something, which he refused and was the only one not affected. Harry says the fact that he didn't hang around headquarters much was a stroke of luck otherwise he too would have eventually have come in contact with the ink and fallen under the spell.
Whether or not you want to call it a potion or not, the ink had elements of one... Testimony during the trial.... Turn Coat page 386 the Merlin is talking here
--- Quote ---A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the member of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of the younger members of the Council outright."
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So the ink was more than a device like the wooden tube Harry uses as a blasting rod..
--- Quote ---The potion is different. We were discussing selling it as a drug which you can do only if you tell what it does, if you advertise it. It works without Harry even there.
It works more like the hexenwulf belts though I don’t think you get possessed by a spirit of lust. It brings a layer of isolation between you and the target of the magic, takes away the choice from you to that target.
It was not said with so many words but I did not get the impression that those belts were illegal. It was not the white council who stopped it.
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Really? Interesting that if the belts were so legal that they were all burned... What does whether or not you sell a love potion as a drug have to do with violating the 3rd Law? Spirit of lust? No, but it does increase carnal lust pushing the drinker to want sex when they might not want sex, a violation of free will.
I say Harry wasn't a jerk because he didn't violate Susan's free will to decide whether or not she wanted sex with him under the influence of the potion... That has nothing to do with morals, it is whether he wanted to be a rapist or not..
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