The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on August 10, 2018, 10:36:12 PM ---Actually I think we do have enough evidence to codify how the laws might specifically work... if you look at the evidence shown within the DF, it's actually based around wither or not your violating free will directly... hence Molly was trained by Leah to use illusion and other non abrogating methods to instill fear as a weapon, as opposed to the original violations using fear. Or the fae themselves being in the balance, never going into the negative with Rent because of the equivalency methods they use combined with the fact they simply do not directly violate free will...
Random tangential, They never violate any of TWG's 3 weaponized powers either, in Duty they maintain a warriors sense of Hope. In keeping their word they keep faith and in respecting homestead laws they respect the sanctity of love.
You might disagree but youd be hard pressed to show me an example disproving such a connection threading the 7 laws with free will...
extended tangential, the 7 laws(and the 7 Courts) may actually coincide indirectly with the 7 deadly sins. Though the exact translation would take some bearing of mind, some are easier to see, like wrath=murder or pride/hubris=TT and others you have to wonder a bit at, like sloth=enthrallment or invasion of mind=envy... and some really stretch but still fit vaguely, like Lust(non physical definition)=reaching beyond the outer gates
--- End quote ---
If we use "free will" as the concept, I mean, "Free will" as we seen in the world of the Dresden files, then I must say that "entering another's mind" either with or without permission is not a violation of anything.
"Free will" in the Dresden files is not concern about making life easier. It is in fact the opposite. "Free will" in the DV declares that nothing can interfere with a mortal's choice making, but it does not protect mortals from interference from the environment.
Mortals has to make choices even if the information is incompleted, even if the information is misleading. People are allowed to lie, trick, scheme and manipulate each other and other supernatural powers are allow to do so as well. The restriction is only tightened on the highest eschelons of power like an Angel. Even so loopholes exists and it is intentionally designed that way.
A mortal also has to keep making choices and suffer the consequences of those choices even they are in pain, in despair or under duress. As long as the influence does not permanently stop or mame the mortal's ability to further make choices.
Only under the most extreme of circumstances would TWG and the angels will intervened, and the intervention most often comes late if it is viewed under mortal perspective.
Entering another's mind without touching or rewiring anything does not hampered someone from making further choices, it just perhaps make your life a lot harder. Rape victims has to keep making choices too. They can choose to commit suicide or to abandoned themselves or they can soldier on believing that there are still light in the world. That's the point of "Free will". "Free will" does not protect you from adversity. It actually forces a mortal to face those adversity under limited resources, triumpth over it and grow stronger and wiser in the process.
As I see it, any magic that is not permanent or cause permanent or long term damage in which the soul cannot recover by itself is not black magic. Potions are temporary, it mostly cannot last a day. Most magic cannot last long either. Every sunrise magical constructs and energies are rebooted. A few sunrise can wiped out 99,99 % of most magical workings. Not even Mab could defy this natural law. She cannot block Arctis tor away from the mortal world after sunrise for example. Only the enchantment in demonreach is sort of long lasting , and that it because it is continuously powered by the energies from the well.
This condition does not protect mortals much, but it does makes violation of "free will" by accident or unintentionally rather difficult. Most of the time, "free will" violation can only be done with intent. When unintentional "free will" violation does happened, the damage tends to be limited and recoverable if given enough effort. The taint is not a permanent hopeless case like Langtry asserted. Only deliberate violation with intent would cause permanent taint.
Wizard Sibelis:
I really don't think your on the same page I am on what i'm talking about here...
--- Quote ---As I see it, any magic that is not permanent or cause permanent or long term damage in which the soul cannot recover by itself is not black magic.
--- End quote ---
and yet the hexxenwolf belts felt wrong to Harry. Time travel has nothing at all to do with the soul, and neither does most forms of necromancy i'm aware of... so i'm not certain I see what your connection is.
--- Quote ---This condition does not protect mortals much, but it does makes violation of "free will" by accident or unintentionally rather difficult. Most of the time, "free will" violation can only be done with intent. When unintentional "free will" violation does happened, the damage tends to be limited and recoverable if given enough effort. The taint is not a permanent hopeless case like Langtry asserted. Only deliberate violation with intent would cause permanent taint.
--- End quote ---
A. What? What condition? I feel whatever your understanding of the idea of free will is is not the application i'm using of it... namely that which breaks down into creatures of spirit not meaning to have pull on fate/effect reality, make changes within it... and B. How can you say without something to point towards? This is something only Hastur would know ;) and what is 'unintentional violation' even mean? You do, or you don't, pretty sure Woj on it is intentions don't matter for jack compared to results, so for instance the guy Harry killed in the wild hunt, is still his fault.
Keep in mind, we're speaking of Magical violations alone, we already have Satan as the king of Lies and Sin so all those are covered in reality with a balance... It's a Dark God of Retribution and Magic we currently lack...
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on August 11, 2018, 12:20:42 AM ---I really don't think your on the same page I am on what i'm talking about here...and yet the hexxenwolf belts felt wrong to Harry. Time travel has nothing at all to do with the soul, and neither does most forms of necromancy i'm aware of... so i'm not certain I see what your connection is.A. What? What condition? I feel whatever your understanding of the idea of free will is is not the application i'm using of it... namely that which breaks down into creatures of spirit not meaning to have pull on fate/effect reality, make changes within it... and B. How can you say without something to point towards? This is something only Hastur would know ;) and what is 'unintentional violation' even mean? You do, or you don't, pretty sure Woj on it is intentions don't matter for jack compared to results, so for instance the guy Harry killed in the wild hunt, is still his fault.
Keep in mind, we're speaking of Magical violations alone, we already have Satan as the king of Lies and Sin so all those are covered in reality with a balance... It's a Dark God of Retribution and Magic we currently lack...
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Hexanwolf belt changes the wearer on the fundamental level, and if you wear long enough the changes is not recoverable. This is what I mean by true black magic. A magic that truly cause cosmic taint rather then just magic the white council say forbidden.
Also, the hexanwolf can only damage and change the wearer's soul if:
1. The wearer continues to wear it for long enough.
2. THe wearer makes no effort of will to resist at all.
What does the above mean. It means, you cannot trick people to wear a hexanwolf belt and that person instantly becomes a roving evil maniac. The person needs to make a choice first before he or she can be permanently tainted, either by ignoring the instinctive danger signs or by being tempted to wear the belt for long enough. It is very difficult to accidently become a hexanwolf demon.
Most true black magic are like that.
Note I say true black magic, which different from black magic forbidden by the council. Which explain about time magic. We do not know if time magic truly cuase taint or if it just not a good idea in general. Merlin himself "time travel" when he crafted demonreach prison. If "time magic" is truly tainting and really broken "Free will", Merlin would have gone insane or become evil dark lord. Which is another example why true black magic is not the same as black magic forbidden by the council. I will call black magic forbidden by the council as "Forbidden magic" from now on.
As for unintentional black magic. Molly's example is book 8 is one. Though it is better to call it "subconscious black magic" instead of "unintentional black magic".
The intent is there. Molly's anger and jealousy tainted the spell intended to help, however it is more or less an accident. As we can see, one such wrong choice does not make one a warlock by default. You need to be like that Korean kid in book 8. The kid does multiple mind magic and control several people for some time. The kid may be a teenager , but I don't believe it if you say the kid does not sense anything wrong when he first do the magic. He is a teenager, not a 2 year old. The kid chose to continue anyway. In other words, the Korean kid fall to darkness is by choice, not by accident.
Poitions, suggestion magic, even Molly's mental attacks, tend to last minutes at most. Which is why such spells is not tainting. Molly can more or less stay sane doing it.
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote ---The intent is there. Molly's anger and jealousy tainted the spell intended to help, however it is more or less an accident.
--- End quote ---
Rosie did still have the holes in her spirit/mind(/soul?) without any such taint, It still did precisely the same damage, without permission. It was just subtler and cleaner... I compare Nelson's to an angry surgeon with a hacksaw to Rosie's scalpel work... though I admit something was wonky in the glittery gloves of love manifestation, but from what I can tell the actual invasiveness of what she did still counted.... the gloves coincidently, remind me of what Margret did to Raith, in that it didn't need to be an internal mechanism to work.
--- Quote --- We do not know if time magic truly cuase taint or if it just not a good idea in general. Merlin himself "time travel" when he crafted demonreach prison. If "time magic" is truly tainting and really broken "Free will", Merlin would have gone insane or become evil dark lord.
--- End quote ---
The reasoning is direct, by altering what is, your nay saying the free will(s) that lead to the original fated timeline to begin with. There are of course ways around this, as described by Bob, on the fate of two cars and theoretically applied by Kumori in causing the death/revival of the thug on Wacker St.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on August 11, 2018, 02:48:30 AM ---Rosie did still have the holes in her spirit/mind(/soul?) without any such taint, It still did precisely the same damage, without permission. It was just subtler and cleaner... I compare Nelson's to an angry surgeon with a hacksaw to Rosie's scalpel work... though I admit something was wonky in the glittery gloves of love manifestation, but from what I can tell the actual invasiveness of what she did still counted.... the gloves coincidently, remind me of what Margret did to Raith, in that it didn't need to be an internal mechanism to work.The reasoning is direct, by altering what is, your nay saying the free will(s) that lead to the original fated timeline to begin with. There are of course ways around this, as described by Bob, on the fate of two cars and theoretically applied by Kumori in causing the death/revival of the thug on Wacker St.
--- End quote ---
Damage between Rosy and Nelson is the same type, but it is not the same degree. It is mention that Rosy can definitely recover from what Molly did, but Nelson have very little chance of recovering. If damage to the victim reflects the amount of taint, the comparison between what Rosy and Nelson suffer should tell us how the intent of the caster influences the result. And don't forget, though Nelson is Molly's boyfriend, Rosy is the girl Nelson cheated with. Molly's anger may mostly on Nelson, but if we say there is no anger targeted towards Rosy at all. Well, it will be difficult to buy the notion.
As for time magic and necromancy. Well, it is true in that sense time magic be considered violating free will. But it does not mean that all time magic is tainting and insanity inducing. Case in point, Merlin crafting demonreach. Necromancy is one branch of magic known to be the most insanity inducing but Kumori can use to save people and she does not look or sound insane at all.
If there are certain "Time magic" that is not tainting and there is even Necromancy that is not insanity inducing, why not Neuromancy?
Langtry's interpretation of the council's 7 laws tends to be all inclusive. All "Time magic" are forbidden and presumed tainting. All "Mind magic" are band and considered black magic. Facts in the series however gave us different signals. As early as book 4, when Elaine casted the mind fog spell, we should have known this is coming. Harry say the magic is illegal, but Elaine does not seem to be turning warlock anytime soon.
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