The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 07, 2018, 03:48:17 PM ---And Harry's reaction when he learns Molly looked into him is instructive:
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"To her", not "To me". It is clear that Harry is more worried about Molly getting tempted rather than himself getting psychicly damage. Furthermore, since Molly is under the doom and is a recovering warlock, things are more sensitive for her compare to most. Those who are under the "Doom" cannot even touch the grey areas of magic, just like a recovering addict not suppose to stay around drugs even if the addict does not really take one.
Judging whether or not entering another mind is cosmically tainting is rather difficult. Firstly, we get mixed signals from different characters and none of these characters are reliable sources.
For example, Morgan is known to be overly strict and unforgiving. Luccio is known to bend rules as she did during book 7 and her thoughts during her younger days in the SS is rather telling. During Smf and TC she herself is under someone else's influence making her decisions suspect. Harry himself is sometimes overly fanatical in enforcing the laws, especially when it comes to himself. His fear of falling into the dark side makes him do stupid things like not using magic to reheat his bath water. On the other hand, Harry is willing to bend, even break some rules when it comes to saving someone else's life like summoning chonsy. Harry also someone who operates under the "doom of damicles" most of the time, either whether he is under the "Doom" himself or when he is carrying Molly's probation. If I am him, operating under such conditions would make me 3 times more careful and rigid compare to people like Carlos or even young Luccio. It makes Harry less prone to play with magic in the grey areas. In short, Harry's perspective is not completely reliable either.
So far, we say Molly entering another's mind twice. In my book both are without permission. Though Harry subconsciously agrees, his agreement is given after Molly scan his mind. When Molly did it Harry does not grant permission. Both cases, in book 10 and 11, left both Molly, Luccio and Harry unharm. Not to mention the multiple practicing sessions between Harry and Molly describe in book 13 and the mental communications between Harry and Elaine in book 9.
When Harry ask Molly to wiped his memory during changes, is another case when Molly do some real mind magic. It is not "Mind scan", but a full blown "Rewiring" case. It is done with permission and under the full knowledge of Harry himself. Regardless of the permission however, the act cause major damage, even though the damage is amplified due to other factors, but it is damage nonetheless.
There is a minor discrepancy between the 7 laws and the practical examples of mind magic. Invitation definitely matters. It at least reduce the damage for certain. But whether invitation could completely makes this suspected black magic into white magic? Well, I can't say for sure. I mean, even with permission, Molly rewiring Harry's mind in book 12 still cause damage, while without invitation Luccio, Harry and Molly come out clean in book 10 and 11.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Paviel on August 09, 2018, 03:12:33 AM ---Morgan was there when Susan vomited it up; he must have known about it. But no, he didn't try to get Harry on that charge.
So clearly love potions don't violate any of the Laws of Magic.
--- End quote ---
So, from a distance of a dozen feet, Morgan can instantly and accurately identify a specific potion out of a stream of vomit that also includes a second potion, stomach acid and whatever else she had eaten or drank earlier?
That is a huge stretch.
And just because Lea's on Harry's side doesn't mean she isn't a threat. Nicodemus is nominally on Harry's side for large parts of Skin Game, for instance.
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on August 09, 2018, 07:21:32 AM ---"To her", not "To me". It is clear that Harry is more worried about Molly getting tempted rather than himself getting psychicly damage. Furthermore, since Molly is under the doom and is a recovering warlock, things are more sensitive for her compare to most. Those who are under the "Doom" cannot even touch the grey areas of magic, just like a recovering addict not suppose to stay around drugs even if the addict does not really take one.
--- End quote ---
That's kind of my point. Even though it was only "looking" and with the best of intentions, Harry considers it at the very least a huge temptation to break the law, if not an outright violation in itself.
--- Quote ---Judging whether or not entering another mind is cosmically tainting is rather difficult. Firstly, we get mixed signals from different characters and none of these characters are reliable sources.
--- End quote ---
This is true, a lot of what we get is second hand.
--- Quote ---So far, we say Molly entering another's mind twice. In my book both are without permission. Though Harry subconsciously agrees, his agreement is given after Molly scan his mind. When Molly did it Harry does not grant permission. Both cases, in book 10 and 11, left both Molly, Luccio and Harry unharm. Not to mention the multiple practicing sessions between Harry and Molly describe in book 13 and the mental communications between Harry and Elaine in book 9.
--- End quote ---
We don't know that it left them unharmed. We don't see in Molly's head, and both Harry and Luccio have much more harmful things in their head. It'd be like saying a knife to your hand left you unharmed, because it's nothing compared to the bullet in your gut.
--- Quote ---When Harry ask Molly to wiped his memory during changes, is another case when Molly do some real mind magic. It is not "Mind scan", but a full blown "Rewiring" case. It is done with permission and under the full knowledge of Harry himself. Regardless of the permission however, the act cause major damage, even though the damage is amplified due to other factors, but it is damage nonetheless.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.
--- Quote ---There is a minor discrepancy between the 7 laws and the practical examples of mind magic. Invitation definitely matters. It at least reduce the damage for certain. But whether invitation could completely makes this suspected black magic into white magic? Well, I can't say for sure. I mean, even with permission, Molly rewiring Harry's mind in book 12 still cause damage, while without invitation Luccio, Harry and Molly come out clean in book 10 and 11.
--- End quote ---
I'd say it matters more for whether the Council considers it a violation than for whether it damages either wizard.
Mira:
--- Quote from: groinkick on August 08, 2018, 06:23:40 PM ---I don't see how. Here are what the laws prevent:
Working with Outsiders (obvious reasons here)
Altering time (Obvious reasons here)
Magic that corrupts a wizard (killing, mind rape ect)
Does making/using a love potion fall under any of these? I don't think so. Harry mixed some ingredients together, and then use magical energy to activate them. It didn't require any desire to do harm or anything like that. Making the potion isn't corrupting from the way the book described it and therefore isn't going to push a wizard into becoming a warlock. It doesn't mess with time, or Outsiders either. Therefore I don't see how the potion or it's use violates the laws.
--- End quote ---
The same way any laws prevent, depends on the punishment for that deters from breaking it.... More or less...
Decapitation is a pretty good determent, but it isn't perfect as we know..
On the surface I'd agree that making a potion in of itself doesn't turn someone into a warlock... However using the old slippery slope argument or gateway argument, eventually it could. No, making potions in of itself doesn't break laws or as you say, mess with time or get one to work with Outsiders.. But I think it may depend off how they are being used, if they are overly used to reach a goal. I seem to remember at some point Harry saying that potions can be a lazy way to get somewhere.. If that is true, it has that in common with black magic which offers an easier way or more bang for the buck so to speak to get where you want to go.. So like anything making potions or most potions doesn't violate the Seven Laws, however abuse of them could... For the lazy wizard it presents a temptation..
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 09, 2018, 02:32:11 PM ---So like anything making potions or most potions doesn't violate the Seven Laws, however abuse of them could... For the lazy wizard it presents a temptation..
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How though? Magic that corrupts the wizard travels through them. You could actually see the Blackstaff removing it from Eb. How could it corrupt them? It's not about corruption like a vanilla person becoming worse by acts of violence. Does abusing potions literally transform the wizard into a warlock, creating insanity? I don't see it.
Mira:
--- Quote from: groinkick on August 09, 2018, 06:31:33 PM ---How though? Magic that corrupts the wizard travels through them. You could actually see the Blackstaff removing it from Eb. How could it corrupt them? It's not about corruption like a vanilla person becoming worse by acts of violence. Does abusing potions literally transform the wizard into a warlock, creating insanity? I don't see it.
--- End quote ---
I think it could, key word here is, abusing potions. First of all you have to ask yourself, what kind of wizard would do that or feel the need to do that? Point being if he or she is willing to cross the line in that way, it is possible that he or she may be willing to do it in other ways... Like beginning with magic that isn't quite black, but not white either.. As Harry has often pointed out doing so is addictive.. Though I admit the potion in of itself won't lead the wizard down the primrose path to warlockhood...
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