The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Mira:
--- Quote ---If so, then Morgan (who at the time was always looking for a reason to harass Harry) would have harassed Harry about the woman who had just drunk and purged a love potion.
I maintain that vomiting up the love potion didn't completely purge it from Susan's system, based on the premise that it enters the bloodstream as quickly as alcohol does.
--- End quote ---
If Morgan had known about it he very well may have tried to get Harry on that charge... Again back to the serial rapist thing, if Harry had gone around physically overpowering women and raping them the Council might not take notice... However if he used a magically brewed potion to overcome them and have sex against their will, they might... Just making the magical potion might not be a violation, but using it to force one's will on another could very well be.
--- Quote ---Mine was excitable, you know, cause I had a recent woj nobody here had probably read directly from Jim's profile... Yours came with these morality questions I'm not here to discuss. I'm here to discuss the violation or potential of it in the fictional DF verse of a fictional universal law that only loosely is based upon real world morality as we know it, and is in fact intentionally set separately of it in the story in it's inception, not saying that's correct, but it's what IS.
--- End quote ---
So was mine,you yelled, I yelled back, but again you are wrong in the sense that one cannot separate real world morality questions from the DF universe.. Things might be written a bit different, however notice the First Law of Magic, the one about killing with magic... It may be a bit different from vanilla human law, and as you say, they might not blink at a wizard killing people by other means... However they do draw the line at doing it with magic. Why? Dead is dead, does it matter how the victim was killed? Apparently to the White Council it does, in their opinion magic should not be perverted in that way. That is a moral stand, remember what Harry said about his soul gaze with Eb, how it shaped his wielding of magic? It was all about right and wrong, ethics etc, all moral stands and very much related to moral stands made in the real world.
--- Quote ---These really have no answers and are not germaine to the answer to this particular question, and I don't feel it's the responsibility of my particular viewpoint to solve these problems.
... Same as I realized the thing I was getting ready to bitch about(to Jim) was not that it didn't make sense but that I've experience just how unfair life can be in action to consequence and that had nothing to do with the particulars of the convo, but not knowing the consequences of any given action even through simple ignorance..(course the real question is why can the fae reach across the veil without doing harm to themselves internally)
--- End quote ---
Because the fae are not human in the sense that humans, including wizards are.. The problem with your simple ignorance argument is it blames the victim.. Yes, our decisions in life all lead to consequences. Crossing a street, is a decision, deciding to use the crosswalk or not, looking both ways before or not, all have consequences.. However if out of the blue a speeding drunk driver hits and kills you, is it your fault for deciding to cross the street? Maybe, but what of the drunk, does he or she deserve the lion's share of the responsibility? Or are you better off never crossing the street in the first place because the risk is always present? Of course one will do what one can to mitigate the consequences, if you look both ways, use a crosswalk, obey the traffic light, you have a reasonable expectation that if you obey the rules you will do it safely.. As in if you are an innocent human minding your own business you have reasonable expectation that some wizard won't invade your mind without your permission... If he or she does, they are breaking one of the fundamental laws.. Then again, walking down the street one might not know there is a wizard walking behind who might invade your mind.. So your decision to walk on the street, should you stay home so your mind won't be invaded? If it is, who bares the greater responsibility, you for going for a walk, or the wizard who messed with your mind?
--- Quote ---Behind that fundamental barrier, though, is your computer itself. Normally, you have it password protected, and yes, you can give someone else the password and they might well use it in an entirely benign way, but even then you're probably looking over their shoulder, wondering when's the last time you cleared your browsing history and hoping to God that they don't start their internet search with certain letters like "p."
If they don't know what they're doing, they might accidentally erase something you wanted to keep, or see something you wanted to keep private.
If they do know what they're doing, they could outright steal your files, change your settings or turn the whole thing into a brick.
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Yup, and it's a crime. Point being we all know the risks of using a computer, and most of us take steps to keep from being hacked.. Further if I chose to use a computer, unless I totally keep my head buried in the sand, I know there are privacy risks or worse doing that. However I like using the computer, so I get the best protections I can get, I chose not to do some tasks on it even if quicker because the cost of the hack is too high... But hacking can still happen, so I either totally refrain from using a computer and any other device that will connect me, or with precautions have a reasonable expectation that I can do it safely... If someone hacks me, it is on them..
peregrine:
Re: Mouse's speech, compare and contrast Zoo Day and Changes.
In Zoo Day, Mouse is A Good Boy (or whatever) because everyone says he is, who has many Friends, and so on.
In Change Mouse threatens to bite Lea's ass off. Literally bite it off.
That's not really a consistent character. But if we're talking various non-verbal cues and whatnot, Mouse being much more crude and sarcastic could be more on Harry than on Mouse.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: peregrine on August 08, 2018, 06:12:35 PM ---Re: Mouse's speech, compare and contrast Zoo Day and Changes.
In Zoo Day, Mouse is A Good Boy (or whatever) because everyone says he is, who has many Friends, and so on.
In Change Mouse threatens to bite Lea's ass off. Literally bite it off.
That's not really a consistent character. But if we're talking various non-verbal cues and whatnot, Mouse being much more crude and sarcastic could be more on Harry than on Mouse.
--- End quote ---
They're two very different situations and years apart from one another.
Most people don't speak or act the same way around 10-year-olds at the zoo as they do around people that they consider a deadly threat to them and the people they care about.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 08, 2018, 11:55:28 AM --- Making a love potion isn't a violation of the
Law, but perhaps using one to alter another's mind without permission may be...
--- End quote ---
I don't see how. Here are what the laws prevent:
Working with Outsiders (obvious reasons here)
Altering time (Obvious reasons here)
Magic that corrupts a wizard (killing, mind rape ect)
Does making/using a love potion fall under any of these? I don't think so. Harry mixed some ingredients together, and then use magical energy to activate them. It didn't require any desire to do harm or anything like that. Making the potion isn't corrupting from the way the book described it and therefore isn't going to push a wizard into becoming a warlock. It doesn't mess with time, or Outsiders either. Therefore I don't see how the potion or it's use violates the laws.
morriswalters:
I have just read the salient parts of Storm Front. The passage is hilarious. That I find it so probably says something.
--- Quote ---Susan tugged at my neck and jerked my head down to hers for a kiss. As kisses went, well. It was, um, extremely interesting. Perfectly passionate, abandoned, not a trace of self-consciousness or hesitation to it. Or at any rate not from her. I came up for air a minute later, my lips itching with the intensity of it, and she stared up at me with burning eyes. "Take me, Harry. I need you."
"Uh, Susan. That's not really a good idea right now," I said. The potion had taken hold of her hard. No wonder she had recovered from her terror enough to come back up the stairs and fire my gun at the demon. It had lowered her inhibitions to a sufficient degree that it must also have dulled her fears.
Susan's fingers wandered, and her eyes sparkled. "Your mouth says no," she purred, "but this says yes."
I went up on my toes, and swallowed, trying to keep my balance and get her hand off me at the same time. "That thing is always saying something stupid," I told her. She was beyond reason. The potion had kicked her libido into suicidal overdrive. "Bob, help me out here!"
"I'm stuck in the skull," Bob said. "If you don't let me out, I can't do much of anything, Harry."
Susan stood up on tiptoe to gnaw at my ear, wrapped her shapely thigh around one of mine, and started whimpering and pulling me toward the floor. My balance wavered. A three-foot circle was not enough to perform wrestling or gymnastics or … anything else in, without leaving something sticking out for the waiting demon to chew on.
--- End quote ---
I'm gonna have to go with massively impaired judgement at a minimum. And if it ain't mind magic then somebody needs to tell me why. So I call it a violation.
On Mouse's narration in Zoo day. I've seen adults who forget how to talk normally when they are talking to kids. And given that Mouse takes commands like, Kill Him! I'm gonna go with he's in kid mode. And for the record, the narration by Mouse in the Zoo Day audiobook blows.
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