The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote ---Thou flungist DUDE thine way first, so it was merely flung back at thou.....
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Mine was excitable, you know, cause I had a recent woj nobody here had probably read directly from Jim's profile... Yours came with these morality questions I'm not here to discuss. I'm here to discuss the violation or potential of it in the fictional DF verse of a fictional universal law that only loosely is based upon real world morality as we know it, and is in fact intentionally set separately of it in the story in it's inception, not saying that's correct, but it's what IS.
--- Quote ---Who says it has to be date rape? Fantasy is merely a reflection of real world morality, why then have the Seven Laws in the first place? Mainly to keep those with magical powers from taking unfair advantage of vanilla humanity... What was the Korean kid and Molly guilty of? Messing over another wizard?
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These really have no answers and are not germaine to the answer to this particular question, and I don't feel it's the responsibility of my particular viewpoint to solve these problems.
... Same as I realized the thing I was getting ready to bitch about(to Jim) was not that it didn't make sense but that I've experience just how unfair life can be in action to consequence and that had nothing to do with the particulars of the convo, but not knowing the consequences of any given action even through simple ignorance..(course the real question is why can the fae reach across the veil without doing harm to themselves internally)
Paviel:
--- Quote ---Making a love potion isn't a violation of the
Law, but perhaps using one to alter another's mind without permission may be...
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If so, then Morgan (who at the time was always looking for a reason to harass Harry) would have harassed Harry about the woman who had just drunk and purged a love potion.
I maintain that vomiting up the love potion didn't completely purge it from Susan's system, based on the premise that it enters the bloodstream as quickly as alcohol does.
Maz:
Alchemy might not work the same way as a direct form of magic because you're not casting it on the other person. If I were to make a potion whose effects, under certain circumstances would violate the laws, would it taint me because it has the potential to do such? If I made a transformation potion to turn me into a raccoon and instead a thief broke into my house and drank it down, thinking it was a beer, would I get stain? It was a completely valid potion made with good intention - unless it were forced upon someone other than myself, the original intended user. Or does the act of drinking it confer the act of will and instead it would be the person who drank it rather than brewed it be the determining factor? Or none of the above? I don't know the answer and I think only Jim could answer this.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Wizard Sibelis on August 07, 2018, 09:23:42 PM ---Hearing Mouse speak solid words plan as day, isn't hearing an emotion... and it would seem the gate and lock that keeps thoughts inside our heads, you know, where we keep our emotions, must have a natural broadcaster for someone else to be the receiver without help... Mmmm. Guess we do have a entrance.
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I went and checked, and Molly does indeed mention Mouse's thoughts. Her line is, "It's something I picked up. A dog's thoughts and emotions are a lot more direct and less conflicted than a human's. It's easier to listen for them. It isn't a big deal."
The way she describes it as something she "picked up" and "listens" for, it sounds like surface thoughts or a "language" that Mouse is speaking -- note that before each of her translations, there's also a description of Mouse's deliberate body language. It appears to be Mouse that's doing something to make himself be heard, not Molly doing something to look into his mind.
Combine that with what we see in Zoo Day -- Mouse "talks" to monkeys, lions, otters, and several other animals in what appear to be complete sentences. Unless we're positing that monkeys, lions and otters are also psychic sensitives, then it seems there is an animal language that Molly simply learned how to understand (if aided by her natural sensitivity to thoughts and emotions).
There's also this bit from Changes that supports the idea:
--- Quote ---I was on my feet before anyone else. I eyed the dog and said, “You can talk. How come I never hear you talk?”
“Because you don’t know how to listen,” my godmother said simply.
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--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 07, 2018, 10:31:44 PM ---We have now cleared that up. :)I lost track, Turn Coat it is. And let Molly burn he did. Which makes for good drama. But it makes Harry look like a self righteous ass. The whole next book is mostly about showing Harry that. Right and wrong doesn't change because you are under pressure.
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Indeed, it doesn't -- but how one acts and reacts to their choices does change. My point wasn't that the situation somehow made right something that had been wrong before -- it was that Harry didn't care at that point that it was wrong because he was that desperate.
--- Quote ---There is no definitive way to say where the line is on mind magic. JB won't lay down the law, other than to say it is banned by the WC. However when it's convenient he will use it. When Elaine is under attack in White Knight, Harry not only hears her he hears the vampire. That's pretty far in without consent. Even if they had used the spell previously. Anyway I think this is moving off point. So I'll let it lay.
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I think that interaction fell under "surface thoughts," or hell, might even have been the vampire literally speaking aloud to Elaine. Or, as Peregrine suggested, it might have been a result of the vampire already working to break into her mind.
So, given everything up to now, I'm positing thus:
1. Soul stuff and mind stuff, while related, are separate in that souls are outward facing and can easily be shared by something as simple as a smile or a hug, while the mind is internal, your private self, and behind a "fundamental" barrier, as the RPG book puts it.
2. Getting past that fundamental barrier violates the Third Law. It might be done "gently," or even with consent, but it's still a barrier you have to get through, meaning you've damaged it, and you have way too much power to muck about once you're in.
3. There are "layers" to the mind, and outside that "fundamental barrier," there is a sort of transmitter/receiver effect, such that surface thoughts and emotions can be broadcast out and passively sensed by those with an ability for it, without having to actually use any magic. This would explain why communications spells and suggestions don't break the law -- they're only affecting the outer surface, not breaking through the barrier.
It's kind of like a computer, come to think of it.
Surface thoughts are like Discord or Steam Chat. You can project to the world your "surface thoughts" and those with the capability of reading them (your friends list) can see them, and even see when you're on and what you're playing without actually speaking to you.
Behind that fundamental barrier, though, is your computer itself. Normally, you have it password protected, and yes, you can give someone else the password and they might well use it in an entirely benign way, but even then you're probably looking over their shoulder, wondering when's the last time you cleared your browsing history and hoping to God that they don't start their internet search with certain letters like "p."
If they don't know what they're doing, they might accidentally erase something you wanted to keep, or see something you wanted to keep private.
If they do know what they're doing, they could outright steal your files, change your settings or turn the whole thing into a brick.
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote ---The way she describes it as something she "picked up" and "listens" for, it sounds like surface thoughts or a "language" that Mouse is speaking -- note that before each of her translations, there's also a description of Mouse's deliberate body language. It appears to be Mouse that's doing something to make himself be heard, not Molly doing something to look into his mind.
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Sounds like non verbal cues and other non verbal communication which humans still possess though most don't know how to listen, hence molly actually understanding what she's hearing instead of interpreting it. I'd say that's possible to be read on anyone, and indeed when Harry is feeling more animalistic Molly does notice.(compared to people realizing someone wishes them harm before they totally spring the assault)
Though one wonders how solid this barrier is when people like Molly exist who can't block at all, implying a great many people with empathy have a thinner barrier.
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