The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: huangjimmy108 on August 07, 2018, 06:35:55 AM ---I suspect this law regarding not invading another's mind probably a little flawed. It is probably not as dangerous as it's seems originally. Though it help in reducing temptation. completely forbidding to enters another's mind does help in reducing possible rewiring cases.
--- End quote ---
Did you mean invade?
And yes, there is a huge temptation when you see something wrong in someone’s mind to do something about it ;D
Paviel:
Point of order: An invasion is an entry without consent.
Since in most other cases consent makes magic much easier and safer (a wizard can cast spells freely in another person's house if the other person invited him in, and not otherwise, for example), it stands to reason that it's the lack of consent inherent in an invasion that makes entering someone's mind dangerous, not the entry itself.
Particularly given that consensual entries into the minds of others have been shown not to be nearly as dangerous as invasions.
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 07, 2018, 07:21:19 AM ---Did you mean invade?
And yes, there is a huge temptation when you see something wrong in someone’s mind to do something about it ;D
--- End quote ---
It is also possible, if the mind wizard is not skilled enough, he or she might do some rewiring by accident when entering another's mind. And that will really be black magic.
As the proverb said: "If you play by the riverside long enough, your shoes will get wet eventually." If I am the council, I would forbid doing "Mind scan" as well. Even if I know the act by itself won't cause any taint or damage, it is definitely an art not to be encouraged. It is simply a well of temptation and very prone to accidents.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 06, 2018, 10:59:46 PM ---That appears to be begging the question. It may be dangerous, and damaging. It may be forbidden by the WC. But the channels exist, otherwise Wizards wouldn't need to erect barriers to entry. It is perfectly natural in the context of the book. It's forbidden by fiat of the WC.
--- End quote ---
I dispute that it is "perfectly natural," because if it was natural, why would you need magic to get in? You don't need magic to share soul bits. But to get into a mind, you have to work a spell to get in.
Erecting defenses doesn't necessarily mean there's a valid entry. If I wear a helmet, that doesn't mean that otherwise there's a "perfectly natural" way for things to get into my skull otherwise. Prison windows that have no latch or hinges to open nonetheless have bars in them -- does that mean without the bars, they're a "natural" entry?
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 07, 2018, 04:31:18 AM ---only invading is forbidden
The idea that entering the mind is always an invasion is nowhere supported in the books. The idea that invitation matters is supported in countless similar situations.
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure Harry notes that he had Molly break a law of magic when he had her change his mind. I can't recall where, exactly, though I'm not finding it in either Ghost Story or the Paranet Papers, so it must be in Cold Days or Skin Game, if it exists.
Ah well, I'm due for a reread soon (got a long commute by train, I'm running out of new books to read anyway).
--- Quote ---The councils neglect of defense against mind magic was not because of the law but because of a general distrust of that type of magic maybe even under Peabodies influence. No official change of law was passed, the old guard started to examine minds directly at the end of turn coat and knew exactly what to do and nobody was surprised they did so. Harry and Molly training started probably even before that given corpstaker in dead beat.
--- End quote ---
How it not because of the law? Harry says the council hates mind magic, and there's not one but two laws specifically about mind magic. I don't see how their neglect of defense could be unrelated to it.
--- Quote ---There is a lot about the traumatic effect of mind magic but it is all about the effects of changing the mind, not about the effect of breaking in let alone the effect of inviting someone into your mind.
--- End quote ---
Harry sees traumatic marks on Molly's victims, even on the one where the magic "worked." But aside from that, you're right -- though we haven't seen many victims of mind-magic "after," except for Harry and Luccio, and their minds are all kinds of screwed up by the time we know it's happened that it's hard to tell just what did all the damage to them.
--- Quote ---And if every entering of the mind was a break of the law there would be no use of the word invasion and no use for that other law against enthrallment either, you usually enter someone’s mind for that.
--- End quote ---
Usually, but not necessarily.
That said, I'm checking Molly's entries in the RPG, and to my surprise, neither one has a Third Law violation on her sheet -- though this might be because the first entry is written circa Small Favor (before she looked in Luccio's head in Turn Coat), and the second is written by Murphy and Butters, who may not know about what she did to Luccio (they certainly don't mention her role in Harry's death).
What is interesting to note, though, is that between the source books, her Lawbreaker power went up a tick, so changing Harry's mind might well have counted as "Enthralling" him.
(click to show/hide)In the RPG, the "Lawbreaker" series of powers cost 1 refresh initially for the first offense, and give a +1 bonus to spells cast that would break that law again.
The refresh cost (and the bonus) goes up by 1 if you have broken the law 3 or more times.
--- Quote ---The finer words of the laws have meaning otherwise Harry would not have raised Sue. The word invasion is meaningful and it is nowhere said that all entrance has to be invasive.
--- End quote ---
It is meaningful -- but we're each pulling different meanings from its use.
--- Quote ---Bringing someone to sleep is seen as mind magic but it was always accepted, easily done and with no particular negative effects afterwards.
--- End quote ---
That Harry has to make a specific note of it makes me doubt it was "always" accepted, and it's not necessarily "easily" done (note Harry's surprise at how Molly instantly accomplishes it on a room of goons when Harry could maybe put one to sleep with a few minutes of prep time)
--- Quote ---Even Molly changing Harry’s memory in changes was not against the laws. Molly was invited to do exactly that.
--- End quote ---
Again, I seem to recall it being called out specifically as breaking a law, but I don't have the citation handy.
--- Quote ---Did it taint her? Was it against the “cosmic laws”? Who knows, maybe. The council laws are a good rule of the thumb for that but they do not exactly fit whatever interpretation someone gives to them. And no way to check that either.
--- End quote ---
I'd be willing to wager her state in Ghost Story wasn't all about plain guilt.
--- Quote ---There is the way the universe works and there are the seven laws. They are related but different. When I am talking about the laws I am always talking about the council laws.
--- End quote ---
I tend to talk about both -- they are, after all, related, and personally I think the cosmic-level laws are the ones you really have to be concerned about.
For instance, a guy might be perfectly within his legal rights when he shoots a guy in his house, but even if he never once gets the slightest bit of legal trouble -- even if he's lauded for his "heroics" -- he still might not sleep at night for a while because of what he's done.
So I think the affect on the wizard is much more important than whether the humanly flawed and arrogant Senior Council says it's OK.
Paviel:
--- Quote ---It is also possible, if the mind wizard is not skilled enough, he or she might do some rewiring by accident when entering another's mind. And that will really be black magic.
--- End quote ---
At which point, even a mind that had consented to being entered would probably yell "GET OUT!"
That's what happened when Harry tried to soulgaze... I think it was Ursiel.
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