The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 06, 2018, 03:29:12 PM ---Or looking for tampering is a grey area that is OK according to the captain of the wardens and Morgan is a zealot and Harry is over concerned because Molly is a warlock and he is tutored by Ebenezer who wanted to instill the fear for black magic into him for obvious reasons.
--- End quote ---
I feel like there is some point in the books where it's pointed out that Luccio allowed a breakage of law, but I don't know where. I could also argue that Luccio was under Peabody's influence at this point. But until I find that bit, I'll let this point go.
--- Quote ---Lucio was pretty clear about it. The laws are there to regulate the use of wizard power and nothing else. Black magic may have been one of the reasons for doing so but to confuse the cosmic laws invented on this forum with the real laws maintained by the council is wrong.
They are two different things and people can easily switch between them in one sentence and confuse everything.
--- End quote ---
She does not say "and nothing else," she just says they're not based on conventional morality. And the cosmic laws were not invented here. Harry's clear from the start that breaking one of the law has a tangible effect on the wizard that casts it, and we've seen that borne out again and again, both in Harry and in Molly and in random warlocks like the Korean kid at the start of PG. Harry is able to recognize the "feel" of black magic.
So the idea that there is a higher version of the laws that doesn't care what the Council says was not created on the forums, it's something that comes from the text of the books.
--- Quote ---The cosmic laws are not codified, the council laws are. For the council laws invitation makes a huge difference and we know that for a lot of things in the dresdenverse invitation makes a difference so if you have an invitation it is OK according to the laws of magic.
Is it OK according to these "cosmic laws"? Who knows. Is there a double blind experiment with soul blackness meters measured before and after with a lot of wizards?
Because otherwise we can only say something about the laws of magic and not about those "cosmic laws". And for all we know invitation seems to matter for the soul blackness as well. seems logical to me because an invitation means no violation of free will and so on.
--- End quote ---
Given that Harry has a tangible mark on his soul (several other wizards mention seeing it, plus that rando in Storm Front), as does Molly (Harry sees it himself), and Harry can detect the taint of black magic in other practitioners, I think it's pretty fair to say there is definitely something there.
Heck, Jim Butcher has even said that how the Council enforces the Laws doesn't match up to the cosmic laws.
Look at the "self defense" exemption. Harry's breaking the law to kill Justin is considered OK by the council (... eventually), and Harry repeatedly mentions that there's allowances for saving your own life. And yet, he still bears the mark of black magic and the tangible temptation to kill again.
--- Quote ---It is nowhere said that they changed the laws. A far simpler explanation involving less earth shattering is that they simply adapted their practices.
--- End quote ---
Changing how you enforce the laws is changing the laws. The laws presumably include their enforcement -- that's how mundane laws work, they lay out what you can't do and what happens to you if you do it anyway (or, at the least, refer to someplace else in the code about it).
So, presumably, the codified law was along the lines of, "Don't go into someone else's brain, or we'll cut your head off," and now is, "Don't go into someone else's brain*, or we'll cut your head off" with "*Unless you're practicing defense against mind magic with your apprentice" at the bottom of the page.
--- Quote ---And why is it bad? It can be needed to heal people and is used that way by the senior council. There is no case in the books of someone invited in someones mind who got a blacker soul or was beheaded by the wardens. The whole idea that entering someones mind is always wrong is based on an interpretation of the law that is not supported by the text and contradicts the words used.
--- End quote ---
Even if a scalpel is only used to heal someone, it still means they have to be stitched up, have to not do anything strenuous for a few weeks and will carry a scar for the rest of their lives as a result.
We don't see everyone's soul who's looked into a mind. But I would wager that Molly's looks blacker after Turn Coat than it did before that book.
Perhaps "wrong" is the wrong word. Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say that entering someone's mind is always damaging. It may be consensual, it may be with the gentlest touch, and it may be intended only to heal, but I still posit that you have to get in to somewhere that you normally can't go into, only out of.
--- Quote ---Harry does not want to encourage Molly seeking in the grey area's. He is trying to protect her.
--- End quote ---
At that point in the conversation, it's too late to "protect" her and Harry knows it. He tells her to run if she wants, because he considers by that point that the Wardens will kill her. So little point in trying to discourage or protect her at that point.
--- Quote ---They do like wiggle room, just not for everyone.
--- End quote ---
Their zero-tolerance policy kind of belies that.
--- Quote ---And nobody changed the wording of the laws so nobody changed the laws. If it is allowed now it was allowed in the past.
--- End quote ---
We haven't seen any rulebook; all we have is a pithy, poetic-sounding one-liner for each law. And the idea that they don't change and have never changed just goes against human nature and the nature of all such man-made laws.
--- Quote ---Skin game. Molly was needed to do the spirits delivery. She talked with IdHarry. She knows how to handle spirits. She even used the wooden skull to give bonnie a home.
The distinction between these things is fuzzy.
--- End quote ---
A spirit of intellect, so I'd wager it's as much "mind" as it is "soul." It was in Harry's brain, after all. Plus, Molly's the Winter Lady and had already visited Harry in his dream -- the same kind of dreamy unconsciousness that IdHarry shows up in.
Or maybe Spirits are weird and different from how people normally work. I'm not sure we can use them as evidence for how human-to-human mind/soul magic works.
--- Quote ---Which is exactly the point. You need extra power if you do not have an invitation. Because it is different if you do not have an invitation.
--- End quote ---
That's still to do with souls, though.
What I'm positing is:
Souls can be and are merged and shared -- that's how the True Love protection works, Harry has some of Murphy's soul on him from hugging her, etc. They're a malleable part of yourself that you can freely exchange with others and which moves with you when you move on ("You are a soul. You have a body.")
Minds, however, are internalized and behind barriers that normally are not a two-way street. It's not a "natural" process to have someone else in your mind the way you might have someone in your soul. The soul is meant to be shared, but your mind is yours and yours alone. Ergo, I posit that for someone to get into your mind, they must by definition go against that natural order and get through natural barriers in your mind.
That's why I call it a violation -- even if you're doing it with the noblest intentions, even if you're doing it exclusively to heal mental tampering, the patient can't "hold the door open" any more than they could open up their bellybutton for you to reach in and pluck out their appendix -- you still have to force your way into someplace you're not meant to be to do the job.
morriswalters:
--- Quote ---Ergo, I posit that for someone to get into your mind, they must by definition go against that natural order and get through natural barriers in your mind.
--- End quote ---
That appears to be begging the question. It may be dangerous, and damaging. It may be forbidden by the WC. But the channels exist, otherwise Wizards wouldn't need to erect barriers to entry. It is perfectly natural in the context of the book. It's forbidden by fiat of the WC.
I'd swear the JB had modeled this on societies approach to drugs, with emphasis on something like heroin. The WC's approach models it rather closely. Even if it wasn't his intention.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: morriswalters on August 06, 2018, 10:59:46 PM ---That appears to be begging the question. It may be dangerous, and damaging. It may be forbidden by the WC. But the channels exist, otherwise Wizards wouldn't need to erect barriers to entry. It is perfectly natural in the context of the book. It's forbidden by fiat of the WC.
I'd swear the JB had modeled this on societies approach to drugs, with emphasis on something like heroin. The WC's approach models it rather closely. Even if it wasn't his intention.
--- End quote ---
only invading is forbidden
The idea that entering the mind is always an invasion is nowhere supported in the books. The idea that invitation matters is supported in countless similar situations.
The councils neglect of defense against mind magic was not because of the law but because of a general distrust of that type of magic maybe even under Peabodies influence. No official change of law was passed, the old guard started to examine minds directly at the end of turn coat and knew exactly what to do and nobody was surprised they did so. Harry and Molly training started probably even before that given corpstaker in dead beat.
There is a lot about the traumatic effect of mind magic but it is all about the effects of changing the mind, not about the effect of breaking in let alone the effect of inviting someone into your mind.
And if every entering of the mind was a break of the law there would be no use of the word invasion and no use for that other law against enthrallment either, you usually enter someone’s mind for that.
The finer words of the laws have meaning otherwise Harry would not have raised Sue. The word invasion is meaningful and it is nowhere said that all entrance has to be invasive.
Bringing someone to sleep is seen as mind magic but it was always accepted, easily done and with no particular negative effects afterwards.
Even Molly changing Harry’s memory in changes was not against the laws. Molly was invited to do exactly that.
Did it taint her? Was it against the “cosmic laws”? Who knows, maybe. The council laws are a good rule of the thumb for that but they do not exactly fit whatever interpretation someone gives to them. And no way to check that either.
There is the way the universe works and there are the seven laws. They are related but different. When I am talking about the laws I am always talking about the council laws.
groinkick:
Here is a question. Do these potions have a weakness? For example a member of the Raith family really cannot use their powers on someone who is in a truly loving relationship. So could it be that a love potion will not work on someone who is already in love? I wonder since it is after all based on magic if they can have weaknesses like this?
huangjimmy108:
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 06, 2018, 09:12:14 AM ---The same Lucio who could not use magic to kill LaFortier even as a completely enthralled half sleeping bomb? The captain of the wardens? I think that is unlikely. These are the council's laws. If they explicitly allow it then it is allowed. Don't confuse the effects of black magic on the wizard interpreted as some sort of natural law of how black magic works with the actual laws which are just a human construct created and maintained by humans.As something that is still allowed but has a certain smell. Unless Morgan handled it because he can be anal about it.That was temptation. And she did not do it.They changed their practices, they did not change the laws. They were just prepared to get closer to the line which brings some risks they were not prepared to face earlier. But they did not change the laws. It is not that easy to declare that something is now allowed that always got your head chopped of. Besides older wizards knew how to do it so they practiced before. And Molly was under the doom. Harry can be as bad ass Morgan when he has reason to and he has. He learned that from his grandfather. When we have Lucio's actions directly contradicting it I don't take it for sure anymore.
It is written law, words are important and we must assume that they are carefully chosen. If every entering was bad the law would have been worded differently. All other things you can invade you can also enter peacefully if invited.Invading is entering without invitation usually with hostile intent. This is not the opposite of entering but just a word with a narrower meaning. If all entering was forbidden they should have chosen a word with a wider meaning.
And we make a sharp distinction in the forums but in practice in the books these words are loosely used, these things are interwoven with each other. Mab just uses one word for all of them together, your essence.
It is your essence that corpstaker casts out and replaces though Lucio remarks she left some traces of the original occupant. It is Harry's essence that enters Molly's mind and spirit in ghost story while she battles with corpstaker.
Who apparently needed an invitation from Mortimer to take over, it matters.
--- End quote ---
I agree. Invitations does matter.
The first time we are introduced in depth to mind magic is book 8. In that book, it is explained that one of the cause of damage when a wizard conduct mind magic is due to the fact that the victim subconsciously resist the command arcanely implanted into them by the dark wizard. The more this command contradicts with the victim's original will, the greater the resistance and thus the greater the damage when the mind battle itself to gain freedom.
This is why renfields cannot last long and tends to goes out of control after some time. However, we also know mind magic that truly lasted. Enthrallment. It is what Du'Morn wanted to do to both Elaine and Harry. The question is: Why enthrallment can last while other kinds of mind control cannot?
It is because Du'Morn first build his image in the minds of young Elaine and Harry as their father figure and master using mundane means. Thus when he implanted his magic into their minds, the ressitance will be minimal if not completely null.
This shows that invitation does matter. It is not because the mind has some kind of a psychic shield or firewall which open on invitation, but if one entered another's mind by invitation, presumably there won't be any resistance and thus no damage.
The council's law may have stated that entering another's mind without permission is a law violation, so Harry is not wrong when he told Molly that she broke the law when she entered Luccio's mind in book 11. But arcanely speaking, no one whom Molly mind scanned suffered any damage regardless she have permission or not. Twice this happened in the series, and as long as she only entered and just take a look without touching, rewiring or modifying anything, it seems harmless as far as what I can determine.
I suspect this law regarding not invading another's mind probably a little flawed. It is probably not as dangerous as it's seems originally. Though it help in reducing temptation. completely forbidding to enters another's mind does help in reducing possible rewiring cases.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version