The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
Arjan:
Entering someones mind is not that different from how the fallen from the coins enter your mind. From what we have seen of how Lasciel operates she needs an invitation to get into your mind. She can bribe, threaten, blackmail and trick you to get that invitation but she needs it or at least it makes things easier for her.
Bob went with butters for a ride. He got an invitation and a contract. Bob is the product of a human mind. and something else.
The mind can let things in and invitation matters. one of those things is the mind of another wizard.
Mr. Death:
Peregrine has the right of it. I don't see how anything I did constitutes "strawmanning," because that, by definition, involves putting words into someone else's mouth.
All I'm actually doing is making separate points.
Now, please, I ask again that we discuss the facts here.
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 04, 2018, 07:09:06 PM ---Because Molly had no invitation. Though to be sure about that you have to ask Luccio who is somewhat less strict in these things than Morgan or Harry as her behaviour in small favor showed when she did not protest when Molly looked in Harry's mind.
--- End quote ---
From what I recall, what Molly did in SF was under the table, too -- a violation that Luccio ordered and allowed -- but didn't report.
And again -- just because the Council allowed it doesn't mean it doesn't break the laws. Harry's mentioned "grey magic" before, and we've also had Luccio in a short story considering killing a bunch of warlocks with a fire spell.
--- Quote ---I doubt the white council can change the laws that easily.
--- End quote ---
In Ghost Story, Harry explicitly says the Council, in response to what I presume are the events of Turn Coat, changed how it does things in regard to mind magic:
--- Quote ---The White Council hated mind magic, generally speaking. If you
beat someone’s defenses, you could do a lot of things to them,
and precious few of them were good. Events, however, had forced
them to acknowledge the necessity of giving all of its members
lessons in psychic self-defense that were more comprehensive
than the simple wall technique that I’d been briefly introduced to. A
couple of old-timers who knew how to play the game had begun
dispensing the basics to everyone interested in learning.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Morgan and bunny warlocks. I don't take his word as the last word on it. He wanted to kill Harry for Sue as well and Lucio clearly thought otherwise.
--- End quote ---
That's fair. But we also have Harry considering it a violation:
--- Quote ---“You broke one of the Laws of Magic, Molly. Willfully. Even
though you knew it could cost you your life. Even though you knew
that it could also cost mine.” I shook my head and looked away
from her. “Hell’s bells, kid. I choose to trust Anastasia Luccio
because that’s what people do. You don’t ever get to know for
sure what someone thinks of you. What they really feel inside.”
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---An invasion is only an invasion if there is no invitation. Otherwise why use the word invasion at all? That only makes sense if there is a non invading way to get in.
--- End quote ---
That's like saying, "Why use the word stabbing at all? That only makes sense if there's a non-stabbing way to stick a knife in someone."
Just because you use a word for something doesn't mean there has to be an opposite.
--- Quote from: Arjan on August 05, 2018, 07:39:22 AM ---Entering someones mind is not that different from how the fallen from the coins enter your mind. From what we have seen of how Lasciel operates she needs an invitation to get into your mind. She can bribe, threaten, blackmail and trick you to get that invitation but she needs it or at least it makes things easier for her.
Bob went with butters for a ride. He got an invitation and a contract. Bob is the product of a human mind. and something else.
The mind can let things in and invitation matters. one of those things is the mind of another wizard.
--- End quote ---
I don't think Bob went in Butters' mind, but in his body, like he rode along with Mister.
And Lasciel was in Harry's soul -- part of it, even -- not his mind. They might be linked, and they might be related, but they're distinct things. Molly has a talent for mind magic; Mortimer has a talent for spirit and soul magic; they're treated as different specialties, with different types of spells that affect people in different ways.
--- Quote ---The mind has it's own way's in, it always has as per even our own real world knowledge towards empathy, which describes Molly before the idea of magical telepathy.
--- End quote ---
That's not what empathy is. Empathy is being able to understand how another's feeling, i.e., seeing signs in their behavior, or in what they tell others; in Dresden, it's the ability to feel what others are radiating out or otherwise broadcasting. Harry refers feeling emotions "coming off" of people. So does Molly. To my knowledge, neither of them refer to empathy or sensing emotions as them looking into someone.
peregrine:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 06, 2018, 12:31:37 AM ---That's like saying, "Why use the word stabbing at all? That only makes sense if there's a non-stabbing way to stick a knife in someone."
--- End quote ---
Well, it'd be like calling any surgical procedure "assault," rather than "stabbing." The consent makes a huge difference. Stabbing someone with a knife includes both assault and surgery, in the same way that entering someone's mind includes both invasion and being a guest.
morriswalters:
Just to add a little humor, surgeons don't stab, they slice and dice. The stab comes when you get the bill. And in case you missed it, advertising is built on hacking your mind. So wizards are falling behind us mere mortals. JB needs to bring the WC up to speed or risk reality overtaking them. Certainly there is someone in the WC at least looking into it, or else they couldn't teach anyone anything. And not to make too fine a point, JB is kind of fluid in exactly what constitutes black magic.
Wizard Sibelis:
--- Quote ---All I'm actually doing is making separate points.
--- End quote ---
Oh, you'd just intended to ignore my own points apparently. While making non Germaine ones about the type of magic corpsetaker uses...
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