The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Is Michael more than he appears?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: vultur on July 13, 2018, 01:28:47 AM ---I don't think we know enough about either the mechanism of Immortal regeneration or the mechanism of Mantle-driven "de-humanization" to decide what the result would be.
If the Mantle rebuilds the being from some "template", then it would "de-humanize" the being - if Molly got killed and rebuilt from a template of "archetypal Winter Lady" then the specifically Molly aspects would be gone.
If the Mantle "restores" from something like a "saved game", it wouldn't, because it would restore Molly to her state pre-death.
--- End quote ---
For some reason the mantle needs a host. Probably to add intelligence to the mix because the mantle on its own does not seem that smart.
The mantle can not exist on its own so it can not simply use a template and be done with it, it needs the host. There is some sort of symbiosis going on.
I think that if/when the host changes that is purely because of the choices the host makes. These choices are under the mantles influence of course but that does not change how these things work.
So if Molly really thinks it is an important job worth doing her soul will change more slowly because a lot of choices she makes will not change it.
Michael/Uriel have a speech about that in skin game.
vultur:
--- Quote from: Arjan on July 13, 2018, 05:15:34 AM ---For some reason the mantle needs a host. Probably to add intelligence to the mix because the mantle on its own does not seem that smart.
--- End quote ---
I'd say not just intelligence but a physical form -- maybe any ability to act at all. The mantle by itself, IMO, is essentially a thaumaturgic spell letting the person draw on "Winter" (permanent/not eroded by sunrise). I don't think it's even as individualized as White Court Vampires' Hunger spirits -- it seems like Harry, Maeve, and Mab are drawing on the same "Winter" source, though it affects them in different ways.
The mantle is a power cord, or at most a battery - it can't actually accomplish anything unless it's powering a device.
--- Quote ---The mantle can not exist on its own so it can not simply use a template and be done with it
--- End quote ---
Well, maybe template is the wrong word, but the mantle does something to let Immortals come back to life when killed.
Bob talks about how eventually the Winter/Summer Lady becomes indistinguishable from the previous one, so there must be an "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady" that the Mantle tries to push its host into becoming.
What I'm wondering is, during the recovery-from-death process, does the mantle restore the Winter/Summer Lady as she was immediately before death, or does the process transform her into the "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady"?
--- Quote ---I think that if/when the host changes that is purely because of the choices the host makes. These choices are under the mantles influence of course but that does not change how these things work.
--- End quote ---
For the Winter/Summer Knights definitely -- Uriel in GS and Mother Summer in CD make that pretty clear, IMO -- but the Knights aren't Immortals.
I think the case is a bit murkier for the Ladies. The clarifying WoJ about whether Molly lost her soul isn't much help, since it seems to be referring to loss of soul in the sense of damnation, not in the sense of being transformed into something that doesn't have a human-type soul or afterlife at all.
We have a POV from post-transformation Molly in Cold Case, so it's clear that she didn't become thoroughly transformed/soulless simply by becoming Winter Lady. I don't know that we can rule out Immortal post-death "restoration from saved game" changing that, though.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: vultur on July 13, 2018, 06:01:16 AM ---I'd say not just intelligence but a physical form -- maybe any ability to act at all. The mantle by itself, IMO, is essentially a thaumaturgic spell letting the person draw on "Winter" (permanent/not eroded by sunrise). I don't think it's even as individualized as White Court Vampires' Hunger spirits -- it seems like Harry, Maeve, and Mab are drawing on the same "Winter" source, though it affects them in different ways.
The mantle is a power cord, or at most a battery - it can't actually accomplish anything unless it's powering a device.
Well, maybe template is the wrong word, but the mantle does something to let Immortals come back to life when killed.
Bob talks about how eventually the Winter/Summer Lady becomes indistinguishable from the previous one, so there must be an "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady" that the Mantle tries to push its host into becoming.
What I'm wondering is, during the recovery-from-death process, does the mantle restore the Winter/Summer Lady as she was immediately before death, or does the process transform her into the "archetypal Winter/Summer Lady"?
For the Winter/Summer Knights definitely -- Uriel in GS and Mother Summer in CD make that pretty clear, IMO -- but the Knights aren't Immortals.
I think the case is a bit murkier for the Ladies. The clarifying WoJ about whether Molly lost her soul isn't much help, since it seems to be referring to loss of soul in the sense of damnation, not in the sense of being transformed into something that doesn't have a human-type soul or afterlife at all.
We have a POV from post-transformation Molly in Cold Case, so it's clear that she didn't become thoroughly transformed/soulless simply by becoming Winter Lady. I don't know that we can rule out Immortal post-death "restoration from saved game" changing that, though.
--- End quote ---
The word "soul" can mean so many things that it is tricky to use. If we ignore the damnation (a damned soul is still a soul after all and how are you going to torture it for eternity if it is no longer there?) we can define the soul as that part of your essence, your non material self, that defines who you are. Your deep inner beliefs and motivations. If you loose that you are no longer yourself. That is what mother summer in cold days talked about and I think it was not just about Harry. It was about Maeve and Mab and even about herself.
That is what everyone was afraid of after ghost story, is he still himself? did he loose his soul?
How do you change your soul? By your choices. Of course there is always change so the term loosing your soul might be a bit arbitrary but maybe it is also about loosing the ability to change yourself, to grow.
Which is different from the damnation meaning. If Corpstaker had a sudden revelation and decided to become a good person and acted accordingly would she loose her soul? Maybe her fellow necromancer would think so.
But what influences our choices? Emotions and power comes with emotions. The winter knights mantle comes with some power and attached emotions. Every bunch of power from outside comes with a set of emotions. That is how Justine can regulate Thomas's moods via his diet.
The mantles are not just batteries with a connected charger. The mantles are power and so have emotions. Harry's mantle is just weaker than Molly's, Molly has a lot more power and is more restricted because of that.
More power opens new possibilities. Because power is also life it will repair the body and keep it young. Even the much smaller power of a wizard does that to some extend, immortality is partly just wizard healing in overdrive.
So much in overdrive that if you die your power just starts generating a new body and your shade just pops in. Just like Harry did in ghost story but with a new and well functioning body, no re-validation needed.
And the mantles emotions are the source of the change. Because all ladies had the same mantle with the same emotional make up the direction of that change is the same. And because the mantle is bigger the pressure is greater but not fundamentally different.
raidem:
I had a thought about Michael, him wearing the Grace, and his seemingly 'inconvenient' though maybe convenient inability to get to his house to stop Nicodemus assault on his home and family.
I'm wondering if we will learn that Michael ended up getting a "Grace" mission during the time we didn't see him when Harry left him up to the point Uriel got his "Grace" back. If Harry and company ever needs to go back in time really distantly, it could be they get use their power to get back to Skin Game to Michael. Then use Michael to get back even further. Basically, I'm saying that Jim could use Michael wearing a Grace in another plot. Hell, maybe a Graced Michael could have shown up in the earlier books like say Small Favor when Michael, Harry go to the Train Station. Or maybe Graced Michael has a showing in other books like maybe Storm Front, etc.
I think we need to allow for an Archangel Michael (our Michael) having done some things with the Grace at some point in the series and him appearing at any point within the series via Grace Powers even in the past relative to Skin Game. This doesn't even touch upon the long term effects on Michael of having worn an Archangel's Grace.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: raidem on July 15, 2018, 05:17:46 PM ---I had a thought about Michael, him wearing the Grace, and his seemingly 'inconvenient' though maybe convenient inability to get to his house to stop Nicodemus assault on his home and family.
I'm wondering if we will learn that Michael ended up getting a "Grace" mission during the time we didn't see him when Harry left him up to the point Uriel got his "Grace" back. If Harry and company ever needs to go back in time really distantly, it could be they get use their power to get back to Skin Game to Michael. Then use Michael to get back even further. Basically, I'm saying that Jim could use Michael wearing a Grace in another plot. Hell, maybe a Graced Michael could have shown up in the earlier books like say Small Favor when Michael, Harry go to the Train Station. Or maybe Graced Michael has a showing in other books like maybe Storm Front, etc.
I think we need to allow for an Archangel Michael (our Michael) having done some things with the Grace at some point in the series and him appearing at any point within the series via Grace Powers even in the past relative to Skin Game. This doesn't even touch upon the long term effects on Michael of having worn an Archangel's Grace.
--- End quote ---
Possibly... Or Nicodemus realized that he could motivated Michael to fall by the threat of his family being killed. This in and of itself could have been a test, one that Michael passed. He proved that he has what it takes to bear such a power. Perhaps Michael will acquire a vacant Grace one day.
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