The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Fistful of Warlocks -- Law Notes
Arjan:
I do not think the white council is that concerned about souls, the white god and the white council are separate things. The white council is concerned about power, abuse of it and it going crazy.
The connection is that corruption of souls can lead to power gone crazy but that mechanism is clear in great lines but not so much in the details. Part of it is also point of view, according to some the wardens are probably a little bit corrupted anyway, they resort to violence far too easily. It is that grey cloak.
So there is a grey area. The laws are deceptively simple but the first law won't bring you that far if you do not know what human is and that also has a grey area. And whatever that definition may be the white council does not look at souls. Probably because that is not practical, they are difficult to handle.
KurtinStGeorge:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 21, 2018, 08:19:00 PM ---I'm not saying they only "learned" it recently, any more than police only learned recently that bullets can kill people.
I'm saying they made a special exception for their law enforcement arm in consideration of the dangerous job they did, and the possible necessity of using deadly magic to keep their lives.
--- End quote ---
Sure, there's always self-defense, but we're not talking about that are we? We're talking about a premeditated attack likely to cause multiple deaths to human targets. Targets, I should add, who appear to be offering no threat to the warden involved. I'm not seeing where the exception could be in this situation. "Well, sure I killed them all without warning or provocation, but they were all bad," doesn't seem like reasonable exception to me. Especially; if Kemmler hadn't been there, Luccio could have just left and called for reinforcements. (I assume the speaking stones Harry used in Changes, or other similar communication devices, are something a Warden would carry with them when on a distant assignment. Though it might have taken a day or two for those reinforcements to arrive.)
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on June 21, 2018, 08:19:00 PM ---That doesn't wash with the Gatekeeper and Molly finding evidence of Luccio being tampered with.
--- End quote ---
My WAG was mostly just a bit of fun, but I said Luccio allowed her mind to be manipulated in order to do her job more effectively and to give herself an alibi. So sure she was tampered with, but she agreed to it before hand.
You know I forgot to add in my previous post that the name Anastasia is actually a clue that Warden Luccio is not who she pretends to be and is something far darker. Not only was the women who claimed to be Anastasia Romanov a phony, but one Albert Anastasia was the head of Murder Incorporated. So both of those Anastasia's were the inspiration for the character of Anastasia Luccio.
Oh, I do agree with you that Harry is more of a hothead than Luccio ever was, but that's also a clue she's not who she pretends to be.
--- Quote from: vultur on June 22, 2018, 03:56:44 AM ---I don't think it would be as broad as Wardens being allowed to kill with magic in general, though, because of the corruption thing.
--- End quote ---
Bingo. This isn't about changing rules because some things never change. Specifically, the damage or taint that occurs from killing other human beings with magic must be universal, or why would it have been made the First Law at all?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on June 22, 2018, 09:49:07 AM ---Bingo. This isn't about changing rules because some things never change. Specifically, the damage or taint that occurs from killing other human beings with magic must be universal, or why would it have been made the First Law at all?
--- End quote ---
To change things.
We know magic changes over time, the effect it has on modern technology is fairly recent for example. We also know that before the laws things like killing with magic, human sacrifices and all sort of things were far more common, that is where a lot of the gods and monsters came from.
We also know that magic is shaped by belief and by will. When you do magic you have to really believe in what you do, that it is right. Those beliefs will influence the results.
Imagine a world were everyone believes killing enemies or even ritually sacrificing them is OK. People do darkhallows, become gods and are even more capricious. The original Merlin and a few others decide that it is enough and want to change things.
To change things you have to change humans, they are the ones that shape everything with their beliefs. So you invent the laws that specify what behavior you want and what not. You weed out those who not conform but that is not all.
You cultivate the belief that not following those laws will make you crazy. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. The laws make warlocks more crazy because that is what people believe will happen. The laws are not just something to police, they are a tool to shape reality.
Breaking the laws will make you crazy, that might not always have been the case.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: KurtinStGeorge on June 22, 2018, 09:49:07 AM ---Sure, there's always self-defense, but we're not talking about that are we? We're talking about a premeditated attack likely to cause multiple deaths to human targets. Targets, I should add, who appear to be offering no threat to the warden involved. I'm not seeing where the exception could be in this situation. "Well, sure I killed them all without warning or provocation, but they were all bad," doesn't seem like reasonable exception to me. Especially; if Kemmler hadn't been there, Luccio could have just left and called for reinforcements. (I assume the speaking stones Harry used in Changes, or other similar communication devices, are something a Warden would carry with them when on a distant assignment. Though it might have taken a day or two for those reinforcements to arrive.)
--- End quote ---
Self defense and when fighting warlocks. From Summer Knight:
--- Quote ---I grinned. Way back when, I'd been a stupid sixteen-year-old
orphan who had killed his former teacher in what amounted to a
magical duel. I'd gotten lucky, or it would have been me that had
been burned to a briquette instead of old Justin. The Council has
Seven Laws of Magic, and the first one is Thou Shalt Not Kill.
When you break it, they execute you, no questions asked.
But some of the other wizards had thought I deserved lenience,
and there was a precedent for using lethal magic in self-defense
against the black arts.
--- End quote ---
And given the quickness with which Warlocks can and will use lethal magic, waiting for them to shoot first before blasting is a losing proposition. Given that a group of four Warlocks is likely to be as quick to kill Luccio as look at her, I don't see the Wardens' leadership arguing too strongly against the use of preemptive self-defense.
Alternately -- since I don't really think this applies to Luccio specifically -- the difference between "I burned them in self defense" and "I attacked them preemptively," is what Luccio decides to put on the page of her report. She appears to be operating alone, after all.
Come to think of it, if Wardens were allowed to kill Warlocks with magic, that might explain the sort of fanaticism we see from Morgan. Remember that the root of the First Law is that when you use magic for something, you believe that usage was right and correct. So if, say, Morgan uses magic to kill a Warlock, he believes more and more that killing Warlocks is correct -- and moreover, that he is right and righteous in deciding who is a Warlock and who isn't, and thus who deserves to die.
I mean, take the word "warlock" out of that last sentence and it's word-for-word the justification for the First Law's existence.
Kindler:
I have yet to read the short (I'm finishing the full series read of the Iron Druid, then switching back to my annual Dresden chronological reread, with all the shorts inserted into the timeline), but is it possible that Luccio was simply stating the most immediately practical reason not to do it? For example, I might tell myself not to steal a car because the valet might see me do it.
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