Author Topic: Mirrors  (Read 7669 times)

Offline Fcrate

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1103
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 07:51:19 PM »
Come on, that's not the same as a DarkHallow.  There is a difference in killing people for power, and casualties if war.  His targets were the evil Red Court vampires, the innocents that died as a result weren't targets, but other victims of the Red's who'd been infected without permission.
I agree with your first point.
I think the innocence being talked about were the people infected, but not turned who died.  Only the younger once's survived I believe.
No, he's right, I meant the vampires. And from their perspective, they're innocent. They have to feed in order to survive, they see humans as herd animals, so they have no qualms about slaughtering them to feed themselves.
Yes, they still have to be killed on basic principle, it's an "us and them" kind of situation. Wiping out an entire species was a concious choice for Harry, fueled by need and much anger. He was quite unhinged in Changes, and DarkHallow was a step away. That's still a moot point though, I can't see how he could manage DarkHallow in such little time, he didn't prepare the way as the Kemmlerites did in Dead Beat, no collective fear, necromantic energy to protect him, and with a broken back. At that point the only viable options were the Coin or Mab.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2018, 07:56:30 PM »
I think the innocence being talked about were the people infected, but not turned who died.  Only the younger once's survived I believe.
Think then on the years they actually lived vs us normals, they owed Father Cronos a debt just as the denarians do, he collects. Dresden didn't 'take' anything from them except a curse they were fighting they're whole existence, acceptance of the curse and it's fringe benefits is one step closer to acceptance of the benefits of Rampirism. Notice the exact attitude of the one person whose had a problem with the fate of the fellowship? If any of them cared it would have been in the same vein of selfishness... considering they devoted their existence to fighting the Ramps I don't believe for one second any one of them was not ready and willing to die for their cause.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3913
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 01:36:21 PM »
I can. Lucky for him and us, he had other options. I believe that the evil scale is: Winter Knight<DarkHallow<Coin. And Harry's preference: Winter Knight>Coin>DarkHallow.

The Darkhallow is probably more evil than the coin. The way the Fallen work is the first taste of power is free, to get you dependent on them.

You can always choose to drop the coin once you've got what you need from the Fallen, before you have to do anything monstrous to pay them back for what they've given you. The issue for a wizard is that means losing your power and going into retirement, but at least it's you paying the price rather than a bunch of dead innocents you had to drain.

Offline Fcrate

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1103
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 05:09:06 PM »
but at least it's you paying the price rather than a bunch of dead innocents you had to drain.
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline groinkick

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 7556
  • Strike first. Strike Hard. No Mercy! - Cobra Kai
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 05:39:17 PM »
No, he's right, I meant the vampires. And from their perspective, they're innocent. They have to feed in order to survive, they see humans as herd animals, so they have no qualms about slaughtering them to feed themselves.
Yes, they still have to be killed on basic principle, it's an "us and them" kind of situation. Wiping out an entire species was a concious choice for Harry, fueled by need and much anger. He was quite unhinged in Changes, and DarkHallow was a step away. That's still a moot point though, I can't see how he could manage DarkHallow in such little time, he didn't prepare the way as the Kemmlerites did in Dead Beat, no collective fear, necromantic energy to protect him, and with a broken back. At that point the only viable options were the Coin or Mab.

In the Dresdenverse there is right, and wrong.  Good, and evil.  Angels who violate laws fall. White Court/Red Court vamps must kill to transform, and become 1 with their demon.
 The vampires thinking they are innocent doesn't matter.  In that universe they are evil.  The only exception are those very few who are like Thomas who fight their evil demon. Very few have shown any care about killing though.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 06:14:21 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Lost Merlin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 425
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2018, 06:04:54 PM »
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.

you could debate this fact as we have WoJ that Power comes from Purpose.  There is no saying that once the dark hallow is complete that the new demi-god or whatever would not be bound in some new way. 

Offline forumghost

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 06:44:19 PM »
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.

Nothing influencing your choices but the normal side-effects of performing a massive sacrificial necromantic ritual.

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2018, 08:19:22 PM »
Terribly wrong, you are what you eat, doing a Hallow and remaining entirely yourself is nigh impossible i'd bet. Your eating a bunch of spirits.
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Fcrate

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1103
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2018, 12:05:49 PM »
Terribly wrong, you are what you eat, doing a Hallow and remaining entirely yourself is nigh impossible i'd bet. Your eating a bunch of spirits.
Heh. Heh. Regretting all the Dirt eating dares from my childhood now. It explains a lot though.
In the Dresdenverse there is right, and wrong.  Good, and evil.  Angels who violate laws fall. White Court/Red Court vamps must kill to transform, and become 1 with their demon.
 The vampires thinking they are innocent doesn't matter.  In that universe they are evil.  The only exception are those very few who are like Thomas who fight their evil demon. Very few have shown any care about killing though.
True. I'm not contesting the fact that they should be exterminated.
Nothing influencing your choices but the normal side-effects of performing a massive sacrificial necromantic ritual.
The resolve though. You have to believe in what you magically do, to pull it off, you have to absolutely believe that killing a few people to achieve your goals (whatever they may be) is right. It's unlikely that you would change.
هل أخذت الغاب مثلي منزلاً دون القصور
فتتبعت السواقي وتسلقت الصخور
هل تحممت بعطره وتنشفت بنور
وشربت الفجر خمراً من كؤوس من أثير

Offline Lost Merlin

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 425
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2018, 12:47:55 PM »
The resolve though. You have to believe in what you magically do, to pull it off, you have to absolutely believe that killing a few people to achieve your goals (whatever they may be) is right. It's unlikely that you would change.

If we are talking about Harry, It would change him, because so far in the books he has shown that every innocent life is worth saving (to a Fault).  For him to change his resolve to think that it would be okay to sacrifice that many innocents would be a huge deviation from who he was. 

I think in changes he says that the reason that he chose Mab and the WK mantle was because the only one who paid the price would be him.

Offline Snark Knight

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 3913
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2018, 05:06:28 PM »
Isn't DarkHallow supposed to be about sucking in spirits to increase your power? (Drunken Master. Heh) The vortex sucking life is more of a byproduct.
The Fallen will have more power over you, influence your thoughts, and eventually turn you into a monster that would just love to cause a Mini-Apocalypse. With DarkHallow you're still your own man, with nothing influencing your choices, so its more of a "Right-now-evil-act" vs a "Later on- a -chaos-loving-maniac" thing.

There's a WOJ about why wouldn't Harry do the Darkhallow out in some sort of deserted location to gain power without hurting any people. The human lives the vortex would take are a necessary 'fuel for the fire', not just a side product of the heirs of Kemmler indifferently choosing to do it in a city.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2018, 12:44:07 PM »
There's a WOJ about why wouldn't Harry do the Darkhallow out in some sort of deserted location to gain power without hurting any people. The human lives the vortex would take are a necessary 'fuel for the fire', not just a side product of the heirs of Kemmler indifferently choosing to do it in a city.
Yup, though I maintain that Chitzen Itza could work, with the Ambient Life of a dense Jungle replacing the need to living humans, while the same accumulation of angry warrior spirits is already present. 
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain

Offline jonas

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1258
  • Surpassed Ms. Duck
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2018, 02:40:54 PM »
Yup, though I maintain that Chitzen Itza could work, with the Ambient Life of a dense Jungle replacing the need to living humans, while the same accumulation of angry warrior spirits is already present.
But.. what if it's actually the mortal choice that they're feeding on in the spell, that most delicate part of the soul only humans possess?
Quote from: A. Lanning
I'm sorry, My responses are limited. You must ask the right questions.
Quote from: C Chaplin
...And so as long as men die, Liberty will never perish.

Offline Quantus

  • Special Collections Division
  • Needs A Life
  • ****
  • Posts: 25216
  • He Who Lurks Around
    • View Profile
Re: Mirrors
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2018, 03:09:34 PM »
But.. what if it's actually the mortal choice that they're feeding on in the spell, that most delicate part of the soul only humans possess?
It's possible, we dont really know all the details on it.  I dont think so, though, on the logic that I think it would work on the same principle as using Animals vs Humans for Zombies: Animals hold less Energy per unit creature, so they would something of a Quantity over Quality solution for a Darkhallow.  Less Human Life an an urban center, but more total non-human (Plant & Animal) capacity
<(o)> <(o)>
        / \
      (o o)
   \==-==/


“We’re all imaginary friends to one another."

"An entire life, an entire personality, can be permanently altered by just one sentence." -An Accidental Villain