Is Mac God?

[Snark Knight]

Things like that are homages, references, or in-jokes, and a reference to a town called "Corwin" is not a connection any more than dropping a line from "They Live" in the movie theater in Proven Guilty was. It's more than a long shot. It's a legal problem that Jim cannot (and wouldn't want to) overcome.

Supernatural had a reference mention of a clued cop in Chicago named Murphy. The Alex Verus series mentioned rumors of a guy in Chicago who flouted magical secrecy by advertising in the phone book.

These are inside jokes for the fans, raidem, not hints that all the franchises are in a common universe.

[peregrine]

Well the thing is, Jim has flat out said he will take an idea from somewhere else and put a new coat of paint on it.  For example the the Zerg from StarCraft and the Codex series.  He took them, gave them a new coat of paint and used them.

Yeah, but that doesn't actually make them the Zerg.  The Xel Naga are not there hanging out somewhere in the background of the Alera stories waiting to do horrible things to people.

[jonas]

It becomes a matter of respect at some point, i'm quite certain Jim does not want people directly comparing his to others to the point of proof=copyright infringement possibility. We have the inability to see and pass it on to ppl more worried about 'their theories' because they've been attacked for them so many times the it's scabbed over into an autoresponse that their theories are not only valid, but should be being made in such a format.
Wag about DF all you want, show where Jim got his inspiration, pls quit saying they are one in the same, or implying more. It's quite disrespectful. (and I loath the idea of having to ask someone vaguely connected to Jim to shut you down.... but I just might... more so because you disrespected my thread because I didn't want to collaborate and then proceeded to repeated talk about your own disconnected theories in attempt to annoy me, despite having no response to your original post, a convo with yourself... and less than a week later are no longer 'depressed' or annoyed in life but willfully producing new idea's. Seems you succeeded in annoying me, here's my response(which also does nothing to invalidate my own facts and argument, on the contrary, it simply drives me to make it))

[groinkick]

It becomes a matter of respect at some point, i'm quite certain Jim does not want people directly comparing his to others to the point of proof=copyright infringement possibility.

You mean like him saying Mirror Mirror is from an episode of Star Trek that has the same exact title?  Like I said before, if you put your own spin on something you aren't violating a copyright issue.

Almost every story ever written is based on some story the author has read or heard about.  There hasn't been a truly original story in probably thousands of years.

[jonas]

You mean like him saying Mirror Mirror is from an episode of Star Trek that has the same exact title?  Like I said before, if you put your own spin on something you aren't violating a copyright issue.

Almost every story ever written is based on some story the author has read or heard about.  There hasn't been a truly original story in probably thousands of years.

Actually, if Star Trek wanted to push, they might be able to stir up trouble, however the name itself isn't copywrite. Also why Jim has avoided quite a few DnD monsters despite most being under an open umbrella because one group could later claim rights if they so choose. Now if They could viably prove Jim was taking from their revenue/base by putting out something of the exact same nature then yea, Look at fortnite being sued by PubG, they aren't the same, but that one little aspect was Battle royale enough to force Fortnite to shut down soon.
Star trek being sci-fi and a show it's kinda hard to say any such thing, but a book on fantasy where in Merlin archetypes are prevalent? Yea.... absolutely. Ya'll seem to forget this is America and they can choose to sue over the slightest provocation regardless of an assured victory. You seem to forget the guy who patented the motor vehicle and waited 20 years until they were being produced to press the patent, which caused ever single competitor to fold and give royalties except Henry Ford whose work helped overturn said patent.... After a lengthy legal battle that would in our case, basically kill the DF.

*compare it to mythology, compare it to works already in the public domain like Shakespeare. Stop saying it's a rip off of protected works before someone decides to take it seriously in the wrong way.

[raidem]

I think you guys are making copyright infringement too easy to do with respect to literary works.  And no one said "it's a rip off of protected works," Jonas.

[peregrine]

I think you guys are making copyright infringement too easy to do with respect to literary works.  And no one said "it's a rip off of protected works," Jonas.

What do you think "The whole of the Dresden Files is spun off of the second Pattern Corwin drew" is?

[raidem]

That isn't copyright infringement, and it is equally valid to say that DF is it's own multiverse but since Jim drew inspiration from Amber and the Author's death left the Corwin multiverse untouched I like to think Jim has thought about it a time or two.  Are you saying he has not once thought about Corwin's multiverse?  He plays/played AmberMush where that multiverse has significant importance.  And Jim has already stated he has borrowed traveling in the NeverNever from Amber's traveling in the multiverse.  I also find it highly likely since he has played AmberMush that he has read Amber Chronicles which once again exposed him to Corwin's untouched multiverse.

"The whole of the Dresden Files is spun off of the second Pattern Corwin drew

I also didn't say that.  I said one could fit the DF multiverse as being the untouched multiverse mentioned in Amber but there is so much more to the Dresden Files that isn't part of Amber.  Jim likes to describe his Dresdenverse as being large enough to fit Star Wars, Star Trek, Xmen, Etc.  Yet you guys can't seem to understand that there was an author, Roger Zelazny, who set up his multiverse like this prior to Jim.  In Amber, a Amberite could travel to anything they could imagine, so if they can imagine a Dresdenverse they would be able to visit it.  According to Jim, Star Wars can exist in the Dresdenverse without copyright infringement, likewise I say Dresdenverse can be said to exist in Amberverse without copyright infringement.  These are aspects of a HUGE multiverse where you don't have to write them, they already exist as written.  You just make the suggestion that they are included or reacheable in your multiverse and let the fans imagination fill in the blanks.

I'm seeing that your arguments are essentially boiling down to badly misrepresenting what I've said.  You are putting words in my mouth, that I didn't say to cast me in a negative like. And, you haven't read Amber series so you most likely don't know what you are talking about with regard to Amber and its potential influences on Jim.  And Fred, Iago, has basically stated that Jim has been influenced by Amber; he even sees some Amber influences in some of the white court vampires.  Jim also admitted to being influenced by Amber and having played AmberMUSH.

[peregrine]

I haven't read the Amber series?  Then which ten books did I literally just finish reading a few days ago?

Yes.  Jim was influenced by Amber.  Just as he was influenced by the Zerg.  That doesn't make them the exact same thing.  There's a difference between "in a theoretically infinite multiverse anything is possible" and "The actual characters are hanging around, and Mac is Corwin."  YOU, no I, were the one who tried to spin this into being based on the second Pattern.  That's a bit more than an expansive multiverse, you're bringing in very specific aspects of the other story.

[raidem]

I haven't read the Amber series?  Then which ten books did I literally just finish reading a few days ago?

And the majority of you or others arguments have been from time periods in which you haven't read the books so the jist of the statement stands with the exception for most recent reading.

I stand by my Wag's, that Mac and Dresdenverse is inspired by Corwin and Corwin's untouched Pattern.

Again, Jim CHOSE to include a nod to Corwin by choosing "Corwin, Nevada" and having it a destination in a traveling trip through the nevernever which Jim has admitted to borrowing from Amber in which Corwin is the main protagonist.  So, we already know Corwin's name is in play.  Maggie Sr. traveled to Corwin, Nevada.  She recorded the travel on the gem given to Harry.  The Reds made their wharehouse near Corwin, Nevada.

[WereElephant]

Again, Jim CHOSE to include a nod to Corwin by choosing "Corwin, Nevada" and having it a destination in a traveling trip through the nevernever which Jim has admitted to borrowing from Amber in which Corwin is the main protagonist.  So, we already know Corwin's name is in play.  Maggie Sr. traveled to Corwin, Nevada.  She recorded the travel on the gem given to Harry.  The Reds made their wharehouse near Corwin, Nevada.

Sounds like a nod to me. He said he borrowed that travel sequence from Amber. Fans of Amber who read Dresden might notice the similarities, and think "Hmm, seems familiar. I wonder if he's read the - hey, this is in Corwin! Haha! He has good taste in books." To me, that sounds like the extent of the homage. No Mac/Corwin connection needed. However, I haven't read Amber, so there could be other similarities I'm missing.

While I disagree with you on the shared universe theory (or shared multiverse, whatever), it's still legitimate speculation. There's been talk of copyright infringement in this thread, but the thing is Mr. Butcher could do it in a way that is infringing or in a way that isn't. Most of this would depend on how he names things. If Mac is ever called Corwin in the series, and his relationship to the universe is described as you specified, that would be infringing. Like if he actually had the character Darth Vader appear as an antagonist, named as such. If Mac is never named as such, however, and his oversight of the universe is merely alluded to, it becomes a non-issue, even if that's exactly what Mr. Butcher had in mind. Look at the Alien in Proven Guilty. It's not really an Alien if you read the text literally, but it's worded in such a way that anyone who knows about Xenomorphs will squee with delight. Or terror. Ultimately, though, copyright is a legal battle over who gets to have money from what idea. The Dresdenverse is focused on the idea of Harry Dresden, not Mac, so I think we're okay.

[raidem]

Sounds like a nod to me. He said he borrowed that travel sequence from Amber. Fans of Amber who read Dresden might notice the similarities, and think "Hmm, seems familiar. I wonder if he's read the - hey, this is in Corwin! Haha! He has good taste in books." To me, that sounds like the extent of the homage. No Mac/Corwin connection needed. However, I haven't read Amber, so there could be other similarities I'm missing.

They don't look alike.  In AmberMush, not Amber, there exists a Worlds End Bar that could be rather similar to Mac's bar. Both have many Mirrors (portals) and teh World Ends Bar is like a multiversal hubway.

Going with a different line of thinking, Hey, maybe Jim's character in AmberMush is who becomes Mac in Dresdenfiles.  Then it isn't Corwin but a character within AmberMush that makes it from Amberverse into Dresdenverse.  Jim's character was Bassor. So in this Wag, Mac would be Bassor.

As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim's character) and Mitre (mine) all over 'em.

I agree with the following and it better states where I'm going with things.

If Mac is never named as such, however, and his oversight of the universe is merely alluded to, it becomes a non-issue, even if that's exactly what Mr. Butcher had in mind. Look at the Alien in Proven Guilty. It's not really an Alien if you read the text literally, but it's worded in such a way that anyone who knows about Xenomorphs will squee with delight. Or terror. Ultimately, though, copyright is a legal battle over who gets to have money from what idea. The Dresdenverse is focused on the idea of Harry Dresden, not Mac, so I think we're okay.

[peregrine]

And the majority of you or others arguments have been from time periods in which you haven't read the books so the jist of the statement stands with the exception for most recent reading.

OR, maybe, and hear me out.

I actually had read the Amber Chronicles long before Jim even started writing the Dresden Files, and there's some other reason I'm arguing with you.  Some reason that's not based on my not knowing the Amber series.

But what could that possibly be?

It's basically the difference between the White Court being based off one of the Ways Jim used, and them being literal shapeshifters from another reality entirely.  The difference between having a multiverse, and having that multiverse actually being THE spectrum of Order and Chaos (and then later more Order).

And if I'm making things up to make you look bad, and you don't actually mean it that literally, why did you bring up the second Pattern as the origin at all?

[raidem]

The argument about reading the Amber series is tangential at this point. I stand by my and others belief that it influenced Jim.  I stand by my belief that Jim could incorporate some crossover characters but not named that from Amber as a nod to Zelazny.  I have wild ass guesses that have Mac as one of these crossover characters in the form of a copy of Corwin.

Is this some grave sin I have committed?

[raidem]

I don't mean it that literally, except that it could be seen as such. That corwin's suggested appearance, or someone like him that did something similar, hints that this multiverse origin may tie into something ofher. I in my wags argue it is, but it is extremely likely we will never get confirmation but only indirect circumstantial evidence like I've said before of having corwin appear in the story.  Should that happen then we know that somewhere there is an untouched multiverse from amber.  Actually, per woj that in the dresdenverse one could find star wars or Jedi then it follows one can find Amber and the created corwin pattern.  So it seems to me that the corwin pattern is likely to already exist within dresdenverse somewhere.  My question then is asking if the dresdenverse was derived from it.

And for the record, you weren't the main target of who I was suggesting as not having read amber series.  That would be Jonas.

Ooh, how about this instead, Mac is Robert zelazny, or Jim Butcher for that matter.  Either fits the same role, they each are creating a multiverse and so are Gods of it.  And again, in the case of Jim Butcher, having Mac be one of Jim's playing characters could fit the same role too.

It's basically the difference between the White Court being based off one of the Ways Jim used, and them being literal shapeshifters from another reality entirely.

I didn't say that they were.  This was Iago's comment that you are badly interpreting:

As I recall it when Jim was working on Semiautomagic (eventually renamed Storm Front), he was a fan of the Anita Blake novels, was playing Amber Diceless online via AmberMUSH (along with me), and so on. The lines of influence may trace more directly to that stuff than the World of Darkness. The White Court vampires, after all, are pretty closely modeled on a house of Chaos we both played in on AmberMUSH called Thanlis. Their blood was a little more silver than pale pink, and they could shapeshift like any Chaosian could, but every time the WCVs pop up in the novels I see shades of Bassor (Jim's character) and Mitre (mine) all over 'em.

Iago says he sees "shades of Thanlis" all over WCV, that isn't literal shapeshifters.