The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What's Up With Marcone?
peregrine:
I don't know that Mantles are necessarily Names as well. Keep in mind that Hercules the mantle has now become The Incredible Hulk the mantle, and while they both have the same aspect of overwhelming strength, there's a major difference between the two.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: peregrine on April 04, 2018, 06:01:29 PM ---I don't know that Mantles are necessarily Names as well. Keep in mind that Hercules the mantle has now become The Incredible Hulk the mantle, and while they both have the same aspect of overwhelming strength, there's a major difference between the two.
--- End quote ---
True but I have two counterpoints to that: 1) that Overwhelming Strength is the only thing that links them, so for one to have naturally(?) evolve to the other would indicate that those other differences are immaterial, and 2) Hercules used to be Heracleese who used to be Hercle (in the older Etruscan), so even the big Ol' Important Names can Change (in terms of usage and popular phonetics) while retaining their Core Identity, which is what Im theorizing that the True Name actually is, as an offshoot of the more elaborate theory on the Egyptian Five-part Self definition.
jonas:
Plus besides green the comparison is pretty spot on, berserker warrior known for sometimes uncontrollable bloodlust. Your thinking popular view, but if popular view were most important Mab would have changed into Elsa by now, or the fairie would at least have drifted from the originals....
besides, this is all a huge misunderstanding. immaterial, but iirc Jim said, "Hulk" no definitive article by placing 'the' before it.... combine this with what we know about Greek Gods trying to stay relevant by Wrestling and we simply have a case of mistaken Hulkity. Baldor is probably the Macho Man too.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: jonas on April 04, 2018, 06:40:41 PM ---Plus besides green the comparison is pretty spot on, berserker warrior known for sometimes uncontrollable bloodlust. Your thinking popular view, but if popular view were most important Mab would have changed into Elsa by now, or the fairie would at least have drifted from the originals....
--- End quote ---
I figure it has to do with some sort of Momentum and the actual span of Living Human Memory (which should include all the long-lived magic users, even Binder). Hercules likely landed on the Hulk more because it was un-anchored at the time, rather than popular opinion being strong enough to change Current Mantle-holders. Otherwise Santa would look more like his current Coca-Cola inspired pop image rather than the Sword-wielding viking hunter we met.
--- Quote ---besides, this is all a huge misunderstanding. immaterial, but iirc Jim said, "Hulk" no definitive article by placing 'the' before it.... combine this with what we know about Greek Gods trying to stay relevant by Wrestling and we simply have a case of mistaken Hulkity. Baldor is probably the Macho Man too.
--- End quote ---
WereElephant:
--- Quote from: Quantus on April 04, 2018, 05:25:09 PM ---True, but that's only an issue if it's /human/ slaughter. I maintain that Chitzen Itza would make the perfect place for a Darkhallow but would be sucking dense Life of an entire Jungle ecosystem rather than just that of the human (and presumably pet & vermin) populations of an Urban jungle. It would be a Quality over Quantity thing on the Life Sucking side (assuming Zombie necro rules apply), and on the Spirit side they have all those sacrificial Dead from millennia of Bloodsport and vampiric rule; waaaay better than just some generic native American Hunter spirits. The strong implication from a bunch of WOJ's is that Free Will (in the cosmic superpower sense) is exclusive to Mortals, and thus to become truly Immortal (in the Mantle Sense) is to loose that soul. We know that is guaranteed (though not instantaneous) for Molly, for example.
The best theory/framework Ive come up with is that Mantles are solidified True Names (where Names are themselves an aspect of The Self along side the Body, Spirit, Soul, etc) that have gained enough energy and/or momentum to outlast their original composite form, not unlike how a Spirit-ghost can be described as /Memories/ that have gained enough energy to exist beyond their original Self. This Solidified power is incompatible with whatever fluid Soulness it is that lets Mortals Change their Names and Themselves and The Universe Itself via Choice. FWIW, it was also theorized that part of the Normal Soul function of a person relies on that thing Bob talks about where Soul chunks get passed to loved ones through Hugs and whatnot; the idea is that normal mortals trade and regenerate Soul regularly, but becoming a Mantled Immortal would freeze the human Host's ability to regenerate their own Soul. So they'd be left with a Finite supply rather than the renewable resource that Bob described to harry. So if she wanted to keep her soul Longer, she needs to maintain as many Real human relationships (family, friends, etc) as possible so that she can get a regular influx of Soul through those interactions. Thus, to loose her connection to her Mortal Life would be to LITERALLY loose her soul.
--- End quote ---
Attempted metaphorical paraphrase: so Generic Immortality changes the state of your essence from liquid to solid. This prevents you from changing yourself. Your character will not deepen, your virtues and vices will remain at a constant level, and your perspective becomes fixed. It doesn't mean you cannot choose to do X action over Y action, but that your basis for the final decision is always filtered through the same thought processes and emotional reactions. In exchange for these limitations, you become unable to die and gain a magical/cosmic power boost.
Mantled Immortality retains the stipulations above, but adds to them. For instance, Molly, in becoming the Winter Lady, is not only having her personality frozen (haha), it is being added to whilst being frozen. The tendencies of Winter (predation, coldness, pragmatism, ruthlessness) are slowly being added to who she is with every choice she makes to embrace those aspects. Once added, they are immutable. She will eventually become a completely solid entity of Winter, no longer capable changing and choosing as a Mortal would. In addition to these personality changes, because it's the Winter Mantle, the inability to deliberately lie has been ingrained into her, as has an essential vulnerability to cold iron. On the positive front, she gains a greater power boost than Generic Immortals would because of the additional restrictions of Winter and Fae.
Am I understanding correctly?
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