The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
The Watchers
groinkick:
Ok this is a lot to respond to. We are talking about a secret organization that has been keeping track of the supernatural world for a very long time, gathering huge amounts of information. This isn't just random mortals attacking the supernatural community. An attack led by this group would be organized, precise, and lethal. They would know who could be reasoned with, who can be bargained with, who can be allied with, and who should be destroyed. We are talking about who I deemed "watchers". We aren't talking about just mortal governments right now.
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 11, 2018, 08:06:18 PM ---It was in the Whamps. Lara would not sit idly by as her people were killed. She'd go after whoever was responsible. So it'd either end quickly, with the humans smacked down and put in their place, or it'd escalate.
--- End quote ---
Ok first off the White Court is incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things. Easily defeated by mortals. An organized military strike on the White Court would not be difficult, and unlike the Black Court, and Red Court the White Court cannot even spread their race in any meaningful way. With likely centuries of intelligence gathered on the White Court, the entire family could be wiped out with incredible speed, and efficiency.
--- Quote ---If it escalated, with humanity bringing their weapons to bear, then the opportunistic sort like the Fomor would back the Wamps. The Sidhe Courts can't work together, so you'd have two of the most powerful factions ready to fight the humans to prevent their extinction, with the others limited in what they could do.
--- End quote ---
The Sidhe are the ones who drove the Fomor into the oceans. They are enemies. The "Watchers" would know that the Sidhe act as protectors from the Outside (if they are actually good at gathering information from the supernatural community). They would not attack, or threaten the Sidhe. As a matter of fact they would know that the Sidhe are deal makers, and will absolutely stand by any deal made. They could be reasoned with and the Watchers would seek that avenue.
--- Quote ---And you know Cristos would be warning the wizards that the vanilla mortals would turn on them at the earliest opportunity, just like they did during the witch hunts.
--- End quote ---
Maybe or the Wizard would have the choice of choosing between humanity, or the supernatural world. Given the choice of humans, or vampires I'm guessing the wizards would choose humanity.
--- Quote ---And how many other minor gods out there are weak because of a lack of faith and opportunity? How many others would love a return to the old ways? To scare the hell out of the humans in their domain, feed off their compliance, and grow stronger?
--- End quote ---
They were replaced. If they want to step on the toes of those who replaced them it would probably be at their own peril.
--- Quote ---The humans would fight back, and so would the supernatural. Some mortal working for the government would figure out a way to open a Way to somewhere important (Arctis Tor, perhaps, with the help of Cowl?) and they'd send a nuke in a la the World Council in the Avengers, or the US in Independence Day. And then the Courts *will* be involved, and not on humanity's side.
--- End quote ---
Yeah if it's scared mortals launching an all out attack. This speculation is supposed to be about attack brought on by the Watchers. They aren't uneducated to the supernatural. They wouldn't want to attack the Sidhe as I stated above. They know a deal could be struck, and the Sidhe would not break a treaty.
--- Quote ---And then the old gods would come, making humanity capitulate.
--- End quote ---
As I said before, they were replaced. They would get beat down by those who replaced them.
--- Quote ---Many would fight, but we're talking maybe 50 million military personnel to protect 7 billion? With no nukes, against an enemy that has them, that can go ahead and nuke every military base and port?
--- End quote ---
50 million active. Realistically probably 1 in 10 people can fight. So more like 700 million.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: groinkick on February 11, 2018, 08:41:20 PM ---Ok this is a lot to respond to. We are talking about a secret organization that has been keeping track of the supernatural world for a very long time, gathering huge amounts of information. This isn't just random mortals attacking the supernatural community.
--- End quote ---
That's what you're proposing. What others proposed was sniping some Whamps to see what they were made of.
--- Quote ---An attack led by this group would be organized, precise, and lethal. They would know who could be reasoned with, who can be bargained with, who can be allied with, and who should be destroyed. We are talking about who I deemed "watchers". We aren't talking about just mortal governments right now.
--- End quote ---
Is your proposed group working in complete secrecy, avoiding detection by the likes of Mab and Vadderung and the Wamp agents in the government and the Ramps' old people and the magical seers and the faeries watching everything everywhere?
Because if anyone knows, they'll be working to compromise their security, Intel, and possible plans. They're not plotting in a vacuum.
--- Quote ---Ok first off the White Court is incredibly weak in the grand scheme of things. Easily defeated by mortals. An organized military strike on the White Court would not be difficult, and unlike the Black Court, and Red Court the White Court cannot even spread their race in any meaningful way. With likely centuries of intelligence gathered on the White Court, the entire family could be wiped out with incredible speed, and efficiency.
--- End quote ---
Hence why their influence gathering of late is so important. They used to have the Ramps to fall back on for help as a fellow vampire Court (see the Ramps frustration about the Wamps not getting involved in the war for evidence of the relationship) but now they don't. But if they have any intel it's going to happen, or any survive, the Fomor and other opportunists will help in return for favors.
--- Quote ---The Sidhe are the ones who drove the Fomor into the oceans. They are enemies. The "Watchers" would know that the Sidhe act as protectors from the Outside (if they are actually good at gathering information from the supernatural community). They would not attack, or threaten the Sidhe. As a matter of fact they would know that the Sidhe are deal makers, and will absolutely stand by any deal made. They could be reasoned with and the Watchers would seek that avenue.
--- End quote ---
If they knew that much, they wouldn't make a move against anyone. Why start fights that aren't necessary when it could cause trouble for reality itself? They'd speak with Mab, who would discourage rash behavior. Especially when a failure would send the world into chaos.
--- Quote ---Maybe or the Wizard would have the choice of choosing between humanity, or the supernatural world. Given the choice of humans, or vampires I'm guessing the wizards would choose humanity.
--- End quote ---
Or the Merlin is right, and there are a bunch of wizards that only resist darker temptations because of the rules. Given the opportunity, more might join the Black Council to gain power and freedom to do what they want.
--- Quote ---They were replaced. If they want to step on the toes of those who replaced them it would probably be at their own peril.
--- End quote ---
Those that replaced them are heavily restricted from what they can do. It'd be mass chaos.
--- Quote ---Yeah if it's scared mortals launching an all out attack. This speculation is supposed to be about attack brought on by the Watchers. They aren't uneducated to the supernatural. They wouldn't want to attack the Sidhe as I stated above. They know a deal could be struck, and the Sidhe would not break a treaty.
--- End quote ---
Nor would Mab want to disrupt the balances in place, for fear of losing control. Don't forget that her Court is made up of things that hunt humans. She's dependent on them, and the mortal faction isn't going to stop with exterminating just one predator race.
--- Quote ---As I said before, they were replaced. They would get beat down by those who replaced them.
--- End quote ---
Who replaced the old Greek and Roman gods? Who replaced the regional deities? A couple monotheistic religions that refuse to get involved in things.
--- Quote ---50 million active. Realistically probably 1 in 10 people can fight. So more like 700 million.
--- End quote ---
Of which the most experienced would be the first to die, leaving the rest to fight with personal weapons and sabotaged equipment. For every one hundred that could fight, how many could resist the temptations offered? Could resist the mental whammies and addictive bloods and monetary rewards and bestowed powers? Of those remaining, how many will stand against monsters without flinching? Will leave their loved ones alone in the night without protection? How many would await the end as pacifists?
The vast majority of humanity is sheep, with maybe 1% making up the shepherds, and 1% making up the sheepdogs.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 11, 2018, 09:22:17 PM ---That's what you're proposing. What others proposed was sniping some Whamps to see what they were made of.
--- End quote ---
Yeah that was a mistake on my part. I read your response without looking to see what you were actually responding to. My bad.
--- Quote ---Is your proposed group working in complete secrecy, avoiding detection by the likes of Mab and Vadderung and the Wamp agents in the government and the Ramps' old people and the magical seers and the faeries watching everything everywhere?
--- End quote ---
According to Jim, yes. He said words to the effect if they were discovered, that would be it for them. (working from memory, hopefully I'm remembering correctly)
--- Quote ---Because if anyone knows, they'll be working to compromise their security, Intel, and possible plans. They're not plotting in a vacuum.
Hence why their influence gathering of late is so important. They used to have the Ramps to fall back on for help as a fellow vampire Court (see the Ramps frustration about the Wamps not getting involved in the war for evidence of the relationship) but now they don't. But if they have any intel it's going to happen, or any survive, the Fomor and other opportunists will help in return for favors.
If they knew that much, they wouldn't make a move against anyone. Why start fights that aren't necessary when it could cause trouble for reality itself? They'd speak with Mab, who would discourage rash behavior. Especially when a failure would send the world into chaos.
Or the Merlin is right, and there are a bunch of wizards that only resist darker temptations because of the rules. Given the opportunity, more might join the Black Council to gain power and freedom to do what they want.
Those that replaced them are heavily restricted from what they can do. It'd be mass chaos.
Nor would Mab want to disrupt the balances in place, for fear of losing control. Don't forget that her Court is made up of things that hunt humans. She's dependent on them, and the mortal faction isn't going to stop with exterminating just one predator race.
Who replaced the old Greek and Roman gods? Who replaced the regional deities? A couple monotheistic religions that refuse to get involved in things.
Of which the most experienced would be the first to die, leaving the rest to fight with personal weapons and sabotaged equipment. For every one hundred that could fight, how many could resist the temptations offered? Could resist the mental whammies and addictive bloods and monetary rewards and bestowed powers? Of those remaining, how many will stand against monsters without flinching? Will leave their loved ones alone in the night without protection? How many would await the end as pacifists?
The vast majority of humanity is sheep, with maybe 1% making up the shepherds, and 1% making up the sheepdogs.
--- End quote ---
Here is what I think:
The super secret government agency would not start an all out war. They may not even get involved in any way beyond collecting information.
If a war did break out it would not be human kind vs the supernatural world. It would be human kind vs the supernatural world vs the supernatural world. Gods would be stabbing each other in the back, vampires would be fighting each other for power. It would be an orgy of violence that would probably set us all back a few thousand years with billions of human deaths, and the gods would all have decimated themselves. It would probably be like hitting a reset switch and we'd be back to 5,000 B.C.
Another possibility is that when the supernatural beings started attacking there would be literally billions of frightened people praying to TWG. Billions of terrified people, focusing their faith, and prayer into one basic message "Save us". I cannot help thinking that this kind of focused faith magic could cause a massive, and devastating response from TWG, Archangels, angels, and army of Nephilim. Now this wouldn't happen in the Dresden Files because well... The story would be over, and I don't see Jim ending it that way. I just think based on how things seem to work in the Dresenvesre that there would be a response.
"False gods!", "Pretenders! Usurpers of truth!" "Destroyers of faith, of families of lives, of children" "now will you answer! your time has come! Face judgement Almighty" - Changes, Murphy KoTC
In an all out war I don't see TWG sitting idle.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: groinkick on February 10, 2018, 08:58:35 PM ---Ok cool. So it does sound like the fall under the non interference version of the Watchers from the Highlander series. If Mac worked for this group he would have access to vast vast information that even the White Council may no longer have access to.
--- End quote ---
Quick clarification of what peregrine said: There is WOJ that their is a Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress, who are not to be messed with, and if Im not mistaken were confirmed responsible for Disappearing the Loup Garou video. So the Librarians are the only Name we know for an In-The-know Government Organization.
The Watchers are different. There is no confirmed connection between the Watchers and, well...anything at all but Mac himself, whom is the only one that we know of. Certainly there is nothing yet staying the Watchers are government related.
Not saying the theory couldnt prove true, I just wanted to make sure nobody was basing their theories on the belief we had any Watchers=Government WOJ. As you were. :)
Kindler:
In a war between Humanity and the Supernatural, Humanity won't actually stand a chance. That 700 million number is astoundingly optimistic, and implies that Humanity itself would be united. Not a chance. You'd see various nations dusting off old scores to take advantage of the new chaos.
Anyway, the point is that we're fractured beyond any hope of cohesion. It wouldn't be the Supernatural World vs. 700 Million, it'd be the Supernatural World vs. 4 Million, vs. 2 Million, vs. 9 Million, vs. 1 Million, etc. In a large-scale conflict, you'd see nations seal up their borders and leave most to fend for themselves. Old alliances, like Europe and the US, might stand, but most of the rest of the world would be too focused dealing with their own issues to present any kind of united front. Especially because borders and troop movements simple don't matter to most of the supernatural world. They can take a force of several thousand, destroy a high value target, then disappear, only to reappear a day later on the opposite side of the planet. It would be a war of hopeless defense, because it's not like many of these supernatural nations have a place on earth for the vanillas to take. Most of vanilla conflicts have been about seizing or defending territory, and it simply won't work against an enemy that doesn't have any.
Vanillas can develop countermeasures and eliminate threats as they crop up, but they can only do that if A) they know where to go, and B) they can get there in time to fight. Just scaling it down to the US, you're talking about having to watch and defend every inch of, what, 3.5 million square miles? With the current US population size, you're talking about drafting, arming, and supporting a relatively small number of capable infantry. The best asset the US military would have would be air superiority. Gunships may not be good enough in a guerrilla-style war with so much land to cover. They could surely respond faster than ground troops, but you're talking about crucial minutes to get in the air and get to the fight. Bombers won't have much to bomb. They could hit places like Chichen Itza, sure, but that doesn't help much if you're fighting a force based in the Nevernever. And imagine the havoc a couple of rogue wizards could have on complex, computer-driven machinery, like jets. All it would take would be a few of them to go to the Supernatural side to turn it into a ground war.
Anyway, my point is that in battles, humanity has a real shot. We're really good at killing things. If ten thousand Fae assaulted a major city, they'd be dealt with within hours, days at most. Someone would figure out that they don't like iron, and you'd have countermeasures developed in short order. If a Black Court scourge sprang up in Manhattan, and someone noticed, it'd be eliminated immediately. Someone would figure out how to deploy holy water as a gas grenade or something, and the problem would go away. But in a full-scale war? There wouldn't be any pitched battles; there wouldn't even be urban-style street-by-street combat like we saw in Afghanistan. It'd be strike after unpredictable strike, and we'd lose, badly, without supernatural allies to counter their advantages.
I do think it's likely that the Supernatural side of things would be just as fractured. To Groinkick's point, I don't think it's likely that gods would side with the supernatural; they'd be guarding the resources that keep them and their mantles juiced up. I think the White Council would pitch in on the side of humanity, for the most part. I think that many of the individual groups would have their own rivalries and competing interests.
Now, a specialized group, like the proposed Watchers, is a different story. If, for example, they decided to eliminate the White Court, provided they had sufficient numbers and intelligence, I don't see any reason they couldn't pull it off. You're talking about what is, in my understanding, a supernatural intelligence agency. If they have significant resources, access to funding, maybe mercenaries, and their own agents (assassins, for instance), then a coordinated, decapitating strike against the White Court could eliminate them, for all intents and purposes. They may not have the reach to get all of them, but they can neuter them by reducing their ranks, seizing their assets, freezing their accounts, et cetera.
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