Author Topic: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?  (Read 24693 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2018, 01:44:55 AM »
If Thomas knew -before he'd even met Harry at that- then obviously the information was out there readily available. Lord Raith just didn't care enough to find out.

Also, Raith totally knew how family works. He deliberately instilled a sense of family loyalty in his children to make them less likely to rebel against him, remember?
We don't know how or when Thomas found out. In any case, Thomas didn't do anything about it until he met Harry in Grave Peril.

It wasn't "readily available" like it was on a billboard that Lord Raith was ignoring. He didn't think he needed to look, so he didn't look.

Faking a sense of family loyalty is not the same thing. Ebenezer outright says that Raith didn't catch on to him and Maggie being related because he didn't have anything like a normal family.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 01:51:56 AM by Mr. Death »
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Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2018, 04:26:12 AM »
Another thing to consider is how the curse effected him.  It drove him mad not being able to feed, and as Jim said it sandbagged the White Court for 30 years.  Before it happened Raith was expanding, and after the curse he withdrew, becoming defensive.  Chances are that Lord Raith just wasn't as cunning as he used to be because he was being constantly tormented by his Hunger, and fearful of anyone ever figuring out he had been cursed in that way.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline Kindler

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2018, 01:35:55 PM »
For what it's worth, my reading of the books indicates that Thomas picked up on his relationship to Harry when he saw Harry's pentacle. I don't think he knew, in Grave Peril, who Harry was to him. I think that he looked into this Harry Dresden fellow in between books, but went back to Harry after the masquerade because he suspected.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2018, 06:19:50 PM »
For what it's worth, my reading of the books indicates that Thomas picked up on his relationship to Harry when he saw Harry's pentacle. I don't think he knew, in Grave Peril, who Harry was to him. I think that he looked into this Harry Dresden fellow in between books, but went back to Harry after the masquerade because he suspected.
Didn't he imply at some point that the reason he offered to help Harry and was friendly with him was because he knew?  I thought so, but I could be mistaken.

I assumed he knew before GP. 

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2018, 06:23:40 PM »
Didn't he imply at some point that the reason he offered to help Harry and was friendly with him was because he knew?  I thought so, but I could be mistaken.

I assumed he knew before GP.

Would not be at all surprised if he already knew.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2018, 04:09:39 AM »
Pretty sure you can't cast a Death Curse if you don't have magic.

Actually, I question that, because of the nature of a death curse.

Remember, a death curse works by drawing on the magical energy that makes a living creature a living creature, instead of aa mass of complicated organic compounds.  That's why it kills you to throw it (or usually does, I can imagine freak circumstances where it might not quite kill you).  Another way to think of a death curse is that it is self-human-sacrifice to power a spell.

That's why Harry was going to be able to throw one even when Aurora had him entrapped in a circle in Faerie.  He was tapping into his own life-force which was already in the circle with him.

That suggests to me that a normal mundane, if they had the necessary magical knowledge, could probably throw a death curse, if they were ready to die to do it.  It might not be as powerful as a Wizard's, but it would probably be plenty potent.

But...how would a normal learn that necessary knowledge in the first place?  Why would they bother to study magic at that level of complexity, just to throw a spell one time that costs them their life to do it?  Why would a Wizard or the equivalent teach someone that knowledge?  It would be the equivalent of strapping on a suicide vest.

I suppose a ruthless Wizard might marshal a group of fanatics willing to do it, but somehow I suspect the Council would take a very dim view of a member weaponizing mundanes that way...they might even regard it as a violation of the First Law.

That said, I have little doubt Margaret still had access to her magic at the end.  I suspect she would have to make use of it to evade the Court and the Council so long.




Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2018, 04:21:23 AM »
The only info we have about it says that Maggie getting with Malcolm was her getting out of the plans and such she had with Lord Raith et al. Not that it was just another step in the plan.

He doesn't say she ended up loving him "in the end," just that she fell in love. I don't see anything in that description that would indicate that she met Malcolm for some ulterior motive -- Ebenezer clearly says she met him after running away from her former associates and, presumably, from the plans she had with them.

There seems to be this everpresent impression of Maggie Sr. of this ultimate planner that did everything completely purposefully and with foresight, but the evidence suggests she very much was not.

She was someone who slept with Lord Raith. On purpose. Multiple times.

If that alone doesn't spell, "Way too arrogant and really bad at predicting the outcomes of your actions," then nothing does.

As a rule, your master planners generally don't end up having to run away from damn near everyone on the planet that's aware of them for two years before being killed. That kind of thing happens to people who only think they're master planners.

This^^^.

I have never believed Margaret was this supergenius Xanatos-gambit-playing chessmistress.  Nothing we know about her suggests anything of the sort, what we do know (including the testimony of her own 'shadow' to Harry) is that she was overconfident, arrogant, and in deep, deep over her head.

But I agree she probably did think she was all that, at some stage.  Remember when Harry was looking the painting of Margaret that Lord Raith made?  It captured that attitude.

My guess, and this is all it is, but I strongly suspect, that Margaret was a particular type.  She was very, very intelligent (which is not the same as smart or wise), very powerful, and probably mastered her magic early, and outraced her peers fairly quickly.

My guess is that she was cocky and arrogant and her failures, such as they were, were not such as to teach her humility.  She was probably very, very clever...and cleverness is not necessarily a virtue.  It can easily be a vice if not coupled to practical humility.

So you have a very powerful witch, with a long of knowledge, not much practical experience, very intelligent but not much first-hand knowledge of people, not many failures to haunt her, all ready to fix everything and go around the rules and so forth.  Naturally, she rapidly got into deep trouble once she was out on her own.

I suspect she figured she could handle the supersex, so why not enjoy it?  More than a few drug addicts have ruined their lives starting from exactly the same overconfidence.  "I can handle it."

Harry inherited a little of that tendency, but he's smarter than his mother, and his life has pounded some humility into him along the way, too.  But remember the incident with Chaunzoggoroth?  Dealing with him was exactly the sort of thing I suspect Margaret used to do all the time, and like his mother, Harry was in over his head.  By luck (or maybe a bit of help from Michael's Boss), Harry found out quickly what he was really dealing with, before it was too late.

Harry's also been learning in recent books a lesson Margaret didn't learn in time, Harry's beginning to realize that his elders often have good reason for their stuffy, annoying rules.

Regarding whether she actually had a Coin, I tend to doubt it.  But she did, I suspect, get a chance to study the Denarians up close.  For one thing, remember that shadow-copy of herself that she placed in Thomas and Harry somehow, triggered when they soulgazed (or maybe it was in the pentacles).  It's not Lash, but it looks to me like something she might have learned to create by studying the Denarians, a baby version of Lash, sort of.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 04:31:11 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2018, 04:27:28 AM »
Lord Raith may not have known that Harry existed for a while. He probably didn't know about Maggie Sr.'s marriage -- if he had known that much about her, he probably would've been able to get to her sooner.

And he may not have known the exact mechanics of the curse against him. It's not like it would've popped up with an infobox detailing what's keeping it on him -- just, one day after he killed Maggie Sr., he couldn't feed. He might have guessed/presumed it was her death curse, but even if he did know it was anchored to her bloodline, he would've thought of Thomas first -- and given he didn't start trying to kill him when he was five, he apparently didn't know this for a while.

Long enough to have completely lost track of Harry and Malcolm Dresden, if he even knew about them in the first place. Hell, if he was aware of Malcolm Dresden, he's probably the type who would've tried to kill him immediately for the crime of taking a woman that Raith believed was his.

So to my mind, evidence points to Raith simply not knowing the nature of the curse against him or Harry's existence until much later in life.


This^^.

We need to keep in mind that other characters have their own stories going on at the same time as Harry.  Just as Harry is learning things all the time, including some stuff others knew and didn't tell him, the same is true of the others.  I'm sure Lord Raith learned a lot of things over the years as he went, and figured out some stuff, just as Harry has.

I also agree that if LR had known about Malcom and Margaret, he'd have gone after them immediately.  Ditto the Wardens, they wouldn't have anything against Malcom, but the were definitely ready to serve warrants on Margaret, with swords.

As for the timing, it could be that LR just happened to track them down as she was about to give birth.  Odd coincidences do happen all the time, even in real life.  In this case, too, it might have been a 'coincidence'.  That is, it might be that Lord Raith just happened to find out when he did, but his finding out still served some larger plan or chain of events unfolding.

We already know from Lash that it wasn't coincidence that Margaret broke away from LR when she did, but that doesn't mean it was anything she planned or set up or knew about.

As for Thomas, we already know he kept secrets from his family, but we don't know enough about his life before to form any conclusions about the details.  We know he didn't even know he was supernatural until his first kill, but other than that, not much.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2018, 04:32:42 AM »
WoJ is that Lasciel knew everything Lash did. 

Could I have a link to that one?

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2018, 05:47:48 AM »
Could I have a link to that one?
Sorry, can't find it.  I combed through the new WoJ site but couldn't find hide nor hare.  But if I recall, it was someone asking if Lasciel knew what happened to Lash, and his response want that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.

Maybe someone else recalls it, or knows where it ended up.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2018, 06:11:48 AM »
Sorry, can't find it.  I combed through the new WoJ site but couldn't find hide nor hare.  But if I recall, it was someone asking if Lasciel knew what happened to Lash, and his response want that Lasciel knew everything Lash did.

Maybe someone else recalls it, or knows where it ended up.

Didn't Lasciel consider it a type of humiliation or something too?  It wasn't actually Lasciel but it was her shadow, a type of clone meaning that she too could have been influenced in that way?
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2018, 12:50:16 PM »
Actually, I question that, because of the nature of a death curse.

Remember, a death curse works by drawing on the magical energy that makes a living creature a living creature, instead of aa mass of complicated organic compounds.  That's why it kills you to throw it (or usually does, I can imagine freak circumstances where it might not quite kill you).  Another way to think of a death curse is that it is self-human-sacrifice to power a spell.

That's why Harry was going to be able to throw one even when Aurora had him entrapped in a circle in Faerie.  He was tapping into his own life-force which was already in the circle with him.

That suggests to me that a normal mundane, if they had the necessary magical knowledge, could probably throw a death curse, if they were ready to die to do it.  It might not be as powerful as a Wizard's, but it would probably be plenty potent.

But...how would a normal learn that necessary knowledge in the first place?  Why would they bother to study magic at that level of complexity, just to throw a spell one time that costs them their life to do it?  Why would a Wizard or the equivalent teach someone that knowledge?  It would be the equivalent of strapping on a suicide vest.

I suppose a ruthless Wizard might marshal a group of fanatics willing to do it, but somehow I suspect the Council would take a very dim view of a member weaponizing mundanes that way...they might even regard it as a violation of the First Law.

That said, I have little doubt Margaret still had access to her magic at the end.  I suspect she would have to make use of it to evade the Court and the Council so long.
The way I look at it, you need not only knowledge, but the ability to apply that knowledge, and "having magic" is about the latter.

Like, Butters by now knows a lot about magic, and Harry I think says Butters grasps the technical stuff better than he does. But Butters can't directly manipulate magical energy and cast spells himself -- he has Bob powering his stuff. So while Butters could probably get the knowledge of how to do a death curse, he lacks the ability to actually gather and shape his life energy in that manner.

You might know the mechanics of a car inside and out from having worked on them your whole life, but if you don't have a toolbox, you're not going to be able to do so much as turn a screw.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2018, 12:59:49 PM »
Didn't Lasciel consider it a type of humiliation or something too?  It wasn't actually Lasciel but it was her shadow, a type of clone meaning that she too could have been influenced in that way?
I think JB said that Harry couldn't have changed Lasciel.  Maybe not in those exact words, but that was the gist.  That Lash was malleable because part of he was Harry.

So I don't think Lasciel would have feared that.  I think her motivation was her pride.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #88 on: February 19, 2018, 04:16:23 AM »
The way I look at it, you need not only knowledge, but the ability to apply that knowledge, and "having magic" is about the latter.

Like, Butters by now knows a lot about magic, and Harry I think says Butters grasps the technical stuff better than he does. But Butters can't directly manipulate magical energy and cast spells himself -- he has Bob powering his stuff. So while Butters could probably get the knowledge of how to do a death curse, he lacks the ability to actually gather and shape his life energy in that manner.

You might know the mechanics of a car inside and out from having worked on them your whole life, but if you don't have a toolbox, you're not going to be able to do so much as turn a screw.

Yeah, but death curses are different, because the power source is different.

Keep in mind that JB has told us that everybody has some ability to use magic, but most people would have to work themselves to a frazzle for years to make anything significant happen, and even then it wouldn't be much.  Some people have more natural ability to tap magical energy, some of this have even bigger intakes and these last are the potential Council-level Wizards.

But if you have for some reason mastered the knowledge, the power for a death curse doesn't have to be drawn in from outside, it comes from you.  It's already there, ready to use.  Everybody is magical, in the DV, the essence of life is magical.  So there's no obvious reason why anybody with the knowledge couldn't throw a death curse...if they were willing to pay the price.

In fact, that might well explain the legends of people cursing someone on their death bed or with a dying breath, and results following.  They might not have been Wizards, just people who managed a spontaneous, natural death curse.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 04:18:55 AM by LordDresden2 »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Could Maggie have taken up a Coin?
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2018, 01:19:11 PM »
I'm not talking about whether the power source is there or not.

I'm talking about the ability to manipulate that power source.

I'm positing that someone who's given up their magic has lost the tools to manipulate and shape that power source. Just like, for instance, a talented, experienced surgeon can no longer perform surgery if you took away their hands.
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