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Spoilers: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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wardenferry419:
Good one, jonas.

Kindler:

--- Quote from: twobee on January 07, 2018, 07:59:31 PM ---I have to disagree with, apparently, most of the people on this thread. I really liked TLJ, in fact, I thought it was quite possibly the best Star Wars movie so far. They had an interesting plot that never went quite the way you'd expect. Had a good mix of drama with some lighthearted moments that I thought worked well. They had some cute, kitschy critters, but were restrained in their use enough that they didn't become cloying or distracting. The action scenes were well-done and actually advanced the plot.  And I really liked the interaction between Luke and Rey.
I understand that some people were disappointed at the notion that Rey's parents were nobodies, but I thought that actually made the most sense in the context of the story. First of all, having her be the secret daughter of Luke, or even Obi-wan, would have been pretty contrived. Second, it was the most dramatic and heartbreaking discovery for Rey. For Luke, pretty much the worst thing he could have discovered was that Darth Vader was his father. For Rey, it was learning that her parents were nobodies and couldn't give her the answers she was seeking. I really hope they don't backtrack on this and try to make her actually the daughter of some important character, and I will be very disappointed if they do

--- End quote ---
Lots of spoilers, cuz the plot of the movie is where I have problems.

(click to show/hide)Rey and Kylo Ren were fine. Luke suffered from character assassination, as far as I'm concerned. The action was fun, but no, it didn't influence the plot at all. In fact, Poe, Rose, and Finn's sideplot had literally no impact on anything. The introduction of Holdo as Leia's replacement, aside from being sudden, was made worse from the fact that she clearly had an axe to grind against the Heroes of the Rebellion. I like the idea that her perspective on Poe was that heroics can lead to needless sacrifice, but the way she demonstrated that was withholding information for literally no reason at all other than "ell oh ell, Poe is a dumb jock." He outright asks her if there is a destination, if they are headed somewhere or just running without direction. He is pleading with her to give him a reason to go on. Her response is "Leia would say have faith," with the "JERK" at the end of it unsaid, but, in my opinion, implied.

So Poe, Finn, and Rose go off on their own little subplot, making up a total of about, what, 45 minutes of screentime in a 140-minute movie? Not only is their mission an abject failure, but it was completely unnecessary. Poe's mutiny? Totally unavoidable. In fact, when Leia, you know, flies through space like Marry Poppins, and returns, all she does is tell Poe what the plan is. And his response is "Oh, cool. That can work. Let's do that."

In short, the entire internal strife among the Rebels is completely and utterly Holdo's fault. She holds back ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY INFORMATION for zero reason. As far as I can tell, nobody else knows this information either. And she knows desertion is a problem, since Rose apparently tazed a bunch of people before Finn.

When you have the meat of the plot of a movie be nothing but the result of "I'm not gonna tell you," you've got yourself a bad story.

Add on the fact that this whole movie seemed determined to undermine the acts of heroism we've had for seven movies. Luke's a hero of the Rebellion, but most of the characters (especially Rose, who couldn't seem to utter a single line without preaching in a terribly written attempt to make her seem deep, wise, and strong) would probably find his actions from the original trilogy stupid and risky.

In short, you can't undermine the value of the previous movies by implying the characters—beloved ones, mind you, characters that have endured four decades with their general reputations among fans totally untarnished—were stupid. Nor can the characters from the previous movie, which were bright spots—Poe and Finn, namely—have zero impact on the plot of the next one. If you removed them from this movie, literally nothing changes, except it's 45 minutes shorter. Hell, Finn's motivation doesn't even make sense. He wants to ditch the beacon to Rey somewhere, right? So he makes it off the ship to a planet that's decadent (where the film stops to tell you a Very Special Message about Animal Cruelty and War Profiteering is Bad Guys, Okay?) but relatively safe, and just... keeps the beacon with him. While he goes onboard the flagship of the First Order. He could've just tossed it into a trash can if that's what he wanted.
I loathed this movie. For me, it is a fresh black mark on a series struggling to regain its narrative feet after a disappointing prequel trilogy. Especially coming off the excellent Rogue One, I wanted my money back at the end.

Anyone is free to disagree with me; I'm not telling anyone that they're not allowed to like something, or that they're wrong for liking it. But the whole thing, start to finish, left a horrible taste in my mouth, and I just wound up mad. I get that they wanted to do something different, which is cool, but their way of doing that was mocking what was old. That's not fair; it's a slap in the face to fans of the original.

Foxed:

--- Quote from: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 04:06:44 PM --- (click to show/hide)The action was fun, but no, it didn't influence the plot at all. In fact, Poe, Rose, and Finn's sideplot had literally no impact on anything.
--- End quote ---

(click to show/hide) Right because the importance of handling and learning from failure, and the meta-narrative of "doing Star Wars the way we have always done Star Wars will not work in the future" weren't, like, the major themes of the movie and reflected in these plots. The major philosophical debate was whether Star Wars (or, the Jedi) should continue to exist, with our protagonist setting it to build something new and our antagonist setting out to burn it all down (he even says "Let the past die... Kill it if you have to." Poe, as the flyboy whose decisions generally turn out well for the universe finds himself killing most of his squadron in an ill-conceived attack, and ruining am otherwise viable plan, killing way more of the Resistance in the process, because he didn't trust the women in charge. He failed and learned from it.
Finn failed in his mission and learned from it.

--- Quote --- (click to show/hide)The introduction of Holdo as Leia's replacement, aside from being sudden, was made worse from the fact that she clearly had an axe to grind against the Heroes of the Rebellion.
--- End quote ---

Was she wrong, though? I thought the movie did an excellent job showing us she was right about a protagonist we had grown to love.


--- Quote --- (click to show/hide) I like the idea that her perspective on Poe was that heroics can lead to needless sacrifice, but the way she demonstrated that was withholding information for literally no reason at all other than "ell oh ell, Poe is a dumb jock." He outright asks her if there is a destination, if they are headed somewhere or just running without direction. He is pleading with her to give him a reason to go on. Her response is "Leia would say have faith," with the "JERK" at the end of it unsaid, but, in my opinion, implied.
--- End quote ---

(click to show/hide)Captain Dameron had just gotten a bunch of people killed in a foolhardy mission for an unnecessary goal, and been demoted from squad Commander to Captain of only his own ship. Why the hell would she tell him anything, and why do you ignore that and assume she's just prejudiced for no damn reason? He even lied about his rank because his general was indisposed.
Poe earned nothing from Holdo, and should have just followed orders.

--- Quote --- (click to show/hide)In short, the entire internal strife among the Rebels is completely and utterly Holdo's fault.
--- End quote ---

(click to show/hide)Maybe you should blame the mutineer for how badly the mutiny cocked up the Resistance's plans instead of the woman in charge.

--- Quote --- (click to show/hide)Add on the fact that this whole movie seemed determined to undermine the acts of heroism we've had for seven movies. Luke's a hero of the Rebellion, but most of the characters (especially Rose, who couldn't seem to utter a single line without preaching in a terribly written attempt to make her seem deep, wise, and strong) would probably find his actions from the original trilogy stupid and risky.
--- End quote ---

It's almost like you understand the movie. And they would have thought that because those actions were that. The problem is in mythologizing those actions and then acting on that myth.

(click to show/hide) Luke had the Force going for him and Poe doesn't, so that's why it worked for Like and doesn't feel Poe.

--- Quote --- (click to show/hide)Nor can the characters from the previous movie, which were bright spots—Poe and Finn, namely—have zero impact on the plot of the next one. If you removed them from this movie, literally nothing changes, except it's 45 minutes shorter.
--- End quote ---

(click to show/hide)A lot less people would have died, the fleet would have escaped earlier if the not-Poe Commander had listened to their general, and the evacuation to Krait could have succeeded. Their impact on the plot wasn't NOTHING. It was just nothing GOOD.
 
--- Quote --- (click to show/hide)Hell, Finn's motivation doesn't even make sense. He wants to ditch the beacon to Rey somewhere, right? So he makes it off the ship to a planet that's decadent (where the film stops to tell you a Very Special Message about Animal Cruelty and War Profiteering is Bad Guys, Okay?) but relatively safe, and just... keeps the beacon with him. While he goes onboard the flagship of the First Order. He could've just tossed it into a trash can if that's what he wanted.

--- End quote ---

It's almost like he wanted to see Rey again. Jesus, you pick that as what doesn't make sense? It makes perfect sense! The motive is clear!

Kindler:
I fundamentally disagree with you on just about every point. I'll concede Finn has (click to show/hide)unspoken motives concerning keeping the beacon. The rest is still, in my opinion, bad. (click to show/hide)Having Finn learn from his failures in the future does nothing for this movie; it's just pointless subplot that has no demonstrable affect on his character. That's all contingent upon the next movie rescuing this one from the slag heap, as far as I'm concerned, which I do not have faith in right now (but I hope to be proven wrong). I want this to be the Empire Strikes Back of the new trilogy, which gets a dozen times better in hindsight, but wasn't particularly well-liked when it first came out.
And yes, I'm going to blame Holdo, (click to show/hide)because she didn't tell anyone else the plan either. There was more than one person involved in the mutiny.. (click to show/hide)Also, Poe was clearly going to cause problems without knowing what was going on, and she should have taken action to either sideline him or inform him. Withholding information because he did something impulsive earlier does not make sense; if you know he's impulsive, rash, and reckless, he's the last person you want to keep in the dark. Combine that with his personal charisma and the fact that he's a popular hero among the rank and file, and it should have been obvious that this was going to be a problem.
As for the theme of the movie, (click to show/hide)I fundamentally disagree with that direction. Keeping with a theme doesn't mean I have to like the theme. I think it's stupid.
That's all I have to say; we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Again, like what you want.

forumghost:
I mean, themes are great and all that, but when the theme of a Star Wars movie is 'Fuck Star Wars'...

That's kind of a fundamental issue, to me.

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