The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
In This, The End of All Things, I Come Out of Lurking
Kindler:
--- Quote from: jonas on January 05, 2018, 08:53:00 PM ---So... you now agreeing Susan had soul or are you trying to double standardize a fact into a statistic?
Going back to the well accepted Soul of Human= Freedom of Will, no, Molly doesn't have it anymore, she might think she does, she might continue on and behave in the same way she would have, but she's not going to change in that behavior. Her Humanity has fled her.
*which jives with Woj Lily was simply deluded into thinking she was still human.
--- End quote ---
I don't think we know enough about the process of turning into a Red Court vampire. I think it's possible that turning kills the person, and they're replaced by something else with the same memories. So I think Susan didn't lose her soul; she died with it. But the Red Court vampire who burst from her skeleton didn't have one. I think the same thing about Black Court vamps.
jonas:
--- Quote from: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 02:46:03 PM ---I don't think we know enough about the process of turning into a Red Court vampire. I think it's possible that turning kills the person, and they're replaced by something else with the same memories. So I think Susan didn't lose her soul; she died with it. But the Red Court vampire who burst from her skeleton didn't have one. I think the same thing about Black Court vamps.
--- End quote ---
That's said mainly and directly about the black court in comparison to the other two. I don't think Red's change more than the superficial outer layer, directly impacting their literal food/ hunger) but as it's a transmogrification it slowly becomes more permanent, with the end result being a blood slave. So all those whom maintain themselves, remain themselves.
Kindler:
--- Quote from: jonas on January 08, 2018, 04:22:21 PM ---That's said mainly and directly about the black court in comparison to the other two. I don't think Red's change more than the superficial outer layer, directly impacting their literal food/ hunger) but as it's a transmogrification it slowly becomes more permanent, with the end result being a blood slave. So all those whom maintain themselves, remain themselves.
--- End quote ---
They explicitly form flesh masks, though; they are the flabby bat-things, but make a mask to hide that. They all make attractive ones, too, and I find it unlikely that every turned Red Court vamp was attractive. Didn't one of the Eebs make one that looked like Susan in Changes to hire that hitter to kill Dresden in the Church?
Also, "remaining themselves" is subjective; is that like ghosts, as explained by Mort? They have that person's memories and think they're that person, only changed, but are something else entirely?
jonas:
--- Quote from: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 04:46:10 PM ---They explicitly form flesh masks, though; they are the flabby bat-things, but make a mask to hide that. They all make attractive ones, too, and I find it unlikely that every turned Red Court vamp was attractive. Didn't one of the Eebs make one that looked like Susan in Changes to hire that hitter to kill Dresden in the Church?
Also, "remaining themselves" is subjective; is that like ghosts, as explained by Mort? They have that person's memories and think they're that person, only changed, but are something else entirely?
--- End quote ---
They form flesh masks, over their true form, they specifically change into gigantic bat creatures. Of course it's subjective, everything's subjective. however we have direct woj dealing with the differences which do not say they simply become something else like BCV's do. The de evolution through transmogrification theory has only to compare the slow degradation into the mindset of the physical form, and the ability to resist this effect through strong willpower.
Rasins:
--- Quote from: jonas on January 05, 2018, 08:53:00 PM ---So... you now agreeing Susan had soul or are you trying to double standardize a fact into a statistic?
Going back to the well accepted Soul of Human= Freedom of Will, no, Molly doesn't have it anymore, she might think she does, she might continue on and behave in the same way she would have, but she's not going to change in that behavior. Her Humanity has fled her.
*which jives with Woj Lily was simply deluded into thinking she was still human.
--- End quote ---
Of course Susan had a soul. I don't believe that the Rampire that took over has a soul though. Once Susan killed Martin, that effectively killed her too and the Rampire demon took over.
--- Quote from: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 04:46:10 PM ---They explicitly form flesh masks, though; they are the flabby bat-things, but make a mask to hide that. They all make attractive ones, too, and I find it unlikely that every turned Red Court vamp was attractive. Didn't one of the Eebs make one that looked like Susan in Changes to hire that hitter to kill Dresden in the Church?
Also, "remaining themselves" is subjective; is that like ghosts, as explained by Mort? They have that person's memories and think they're that person, only changed, but are something else entirely?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: jonas on January 08, 2018, 05:36:15 PM ---They form flesh masks, over their true form, they specifically change into gigantic bat creatures. Of course it's subjective, everything's subjective. however we have direct woj dealing with the differences which do not say they simply become something else like BCV's do. The de evolution through transmogrification theory has only to compare the slow degradation into the mindset of the physical form, and the ability to resist this effect through strong willpower.
--- End quote ---
AND they can change the way they appear. Ariana in Edinburgh did not appear the same as she did in Chichen Itza. Harry even comments on it. So a Full Rampire can change their flesh mask. They are not stuck in one shape, like us mere humans.
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