The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?

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the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:

--- Quote from: jonas on December 16, 2017, 04:18:25 PM --- Outsiders that we're having trouble with are by and large the spirits of Gods(which might be oxymoronic, as Gods seem to be spiritual first anyway) who died but who don't want to go away. The ones who are part of reality, as the seasons or remember by human history seem to be more inside than out. But there are those killed intentionally whose masks and power were fed into the stone table that have not faded because they are not forgotten by humanity, but who have only a consciousness, no power of their own, and the memetics of them are tied up into the courts as well. The Walkers and Nemesis are on this tier of outsider.

--- End quote ---

That take on them is definitely qualitatively different; I am not immediately finding it appealing because it binds them more to mortal reality than feels right to me, but this needs further thought.


--- Quote ---Satan I think did this, and the current outsiders have outsider via lovecraftian appearance because that's the current belief for 'outside' in the human mind. Previously Hell was outside reality, and certainly Jotunheim was considered beyond the realms in Nordic myth.

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Same reaction applies here.  I think Outsiders are fundamentally more alien than that, and thinking of such anthropocentric concepts as fear or despair as defining their purpose and nature rather than merely being tools they use feels wrong; mind you, I am still less than entirely happy with how emotionally human Jim has had Faerie turn out to be, it feels both jarring with earlier books and to lessen their impact, to me. The DV is more impressive if it is bigger and more complex than anything human nature can be the measure of.


--- Quote ---Specifically we have a woj the Eldest(including Lea) are actually a parts of the human psyche.

--- End quote ---

I would love to be pointed at that.


--- Quote ---Me too lol. If we have the same data, will we come to the same conclusions lol?

--- End quote ---

Some day Jim will set down a final word on the whole setting, and at that point there will be no conclusions left to draw.


--- Quote ---Not sure what to say to that, think you have it a bit different than I do here. Jotun are not Fomor, Jotun are what became winter imo.

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I do believe Gard mentions at some point that some Jotun have joined the Fomor.


--- Quote ---I count Molly to, but that's just me lol. She was Nfected from breaking the laws and the fetch ate the Nfection. Notice after he eats her Scarecrow says he's served the queen of air and darkness since before human history? He is referring to the original. He's fearbringer using the minds eye as the mirror/beacon to find it's way in.

--- End quote ---

I read him as Outsider-infected and in the process of attacking Mab there, with Molly as an incidental bonus.


--- Quote --- That was the goal of the fetches, to fetch and eat her Nfection. which MW I think was allowed to release because... Mab had violated rules containing the Knight whose job killing Nfectee's is.

--- End quote ---

That makes Winter sound a lot more internally conflicted than I have considered.  I think Mab contains Slade with the intent of putting pressure on Harry to take up the job.


--- Quote ---You lost me here.

--- End quote ---

If Namshiel is working for Mab, it explains why Mab would hide thinking about it from Harry, and it could explain the favour Mab owes Anduriel, which gets called in at the start of SG.

If Namshiel is an enemy, neither of these seem to be the case to me.

Therefore I find the former notion more appealingly Occamian.



--- Quote ---I think it's going to be a clue for PT actually, I think Mab is going to close a circle around Chicago for the talks, effectively making it part of the NN and under her power directly.

--- End quote ---

That would certainly be neat.


--- Quote ---Ah, in FM I finger the loups aura for making Harry almost give up on the way out of the Precinct, and the 'old' fireman as uriel providing a balance.

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That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.

jonas:

--- Quote ---That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.
--- End quote ---
He gets to act to counter violations of free will technically, from Angelic sources. I'd point out though, Michael with the Sword has at least three times been considered 'on duty' vs things not the Fallen. At least once vs Blamps pre series, a Dragon, and vs the Outsiders offscreen in PG. Consider how thing balance each other, does 30 coins to 3 swords seem right? Or does 3 walkers to three KotC?(technically 4, but i'd have to go about convincing you of two or three other things to prove that lol) The Denarians are the inverse balance to the KotC just as much as the Fairie courts. With Nemesis standing on the sidelines waiting for an imbalance for one and the walkers for the other. It's ALL about trying to keep the balance inside of reality to keep it from reality vs unreality.

Since fear becomes Rage I consider the Loup the prison created for Fearbringer's spiritual attachment. So he was directly countering what I consider a known foe.
get to the rest soon.

jonas:

--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 16, 2017, 05:38:56 PM ---That take on them is definitely qualitatively different; I am not immediately finding it appealing because it binds them more to mortal reality than feels right to me, but this needs further thought.
--- End quote ---
Ah, that's why I have different tiers to them, like the Lovecraftian version too(especially when you start in on the extended lore)


--- Quote ---Same reaction applies here.  I think Outsiders are fundamentally more alien than that, and thinking of such anthropocentric concepts as fear or despair as defining their purpose and nature rather than merely being tools they use feels wrong;
--- End quote ---
Mmm, I think that's the whole point of DR and seeing different mindsets/visages of reality. DR made some of those things part of reality, such as fear or death(a negative thing if ever there was one) without giving the patron spirit of those things a way to act through more then Influence(which by and large makes all those things in the well part of what we are considering 'Nemesis' as a dark and possessive force) More perhaps these are just the aspects that aren't alien to them. Those few things in reality we still remember of nameless Gods of many horrid aspects waiting to find more room inside reality.
--- Quote --- mind you, I am still less than entirely happy with how emotionally human Jim has had Faerie turn out to be, it feels both jarring with earlier books and to lessen their impact, to me. The DV is more impressive if it is bigger and more complex than anything human nature can be the measure of.
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I don't think that changing from the beginning of the series to now is a coincidence, but can you detail more of what you mean> your expectations?

--- Quote ---I would love to be pointed at that.
--- End quote ---
If I find it... However, I wonder I can't convince you in a round about way. Lea is a Muse, specifically, like the greek muses, of which the 9 were said to represent aspects of the human psyche(i'd wonder how many Eldest mantles Faerie has., Mmm). This is directly germain when you consider, the Library of Alexandria was specifically known for housing the larges collection on the 9 muses, and OG Merlin is direclt referenced for being the one to save what could be from said Library. I find this... NOT a coincidence you know lol?


--- Quote ---Some day Jim will set down a final word on the whole setting, and at that point there will be no conclusions left to draw.
--- End quote ---
That's what i'm worried about though, even if he completes the series a lot of stuff just might not come up directly that he's still layered into the story never the less.


--- Quote ---I do believe Gard mentions at some point that some Jotun have joined the Fomor.
--- End quote ---
That's probable. I think they made reference to something of that, them being defeated gods.

--- Quote ---I read him as Outsider-infected and in the process of attacking Mab there, with Molly as an incidental bonus.
--- End quote ---
Na, I see the change when Harry is approaching the tower, the door slamming shut that had been opened, to mean SC was at that time overtaken. Which iirc is exactly after molly screamed/was fed upon. The timeline works with the theory.


--- Quote ---That makes Winter sound a lot more internally conflicted than I have considered.  I think Mab contains Slade with the intent of putting pressure on Harry to take up the job.
--- End quote ---
Harry didn't even know he was alive for years though. It's less about internal conflict then the mothers doing what's needed to maintain the balance, even if tha's not always a good thing overall. Like with the unmaking it was necessary. Going back to what you said about Faerie emotions... Titania used logic to overcome desire to kill Dresden and Mab used 'romantic' notions to choose who killed Maeve... I think they're not holding together as well as they used to anymore. they're blending in traits.


--- Quote ---If Namshiel is working for Mab, it explains why Mab would hide thinking about it from Harry, and it could explain the favour Mab owes Anduriel, which gets called in at the start of SG.

If Namshiel is an enemy, neither of these seem to be the case to me.

Therefore I find the former notion more appealingly Occamian.
--- End quote ---
I don't agree. Lol, I of course have no idea were you got those idea's to say your wrong.  But I can't see the edge on your razor there.



--- Quote ---That would certainly be neat.

That does not ring true to me because sfaict Uriel only gets to act like that to counter the Fallen.

--- End quote ---

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 02:05:32 PM ---Assuming for a moment that Nemesis is some sort of behind-everything boogeyman rather than a Fae-specific infection (which I do not actually believe, because there is no need for it, it does not explain anything not already solidly explained), it's still a specific individual disrupting influence.  So that's an argument for attacking Nemesis, not for attacking the Red Court.  If anything, it's an argument for allying with the Red Court against Nemesis; they are visibly not benefiting from its actions either.
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Yeah, but that was not an option.  What would make sense in a grand, abstract big-view analysis doesn't matter, what mattered was the perceived situation at the time.  Harry had no idea Nemesis existed as of Grave Peril, so he couldn't be expected to take it into account in his decisions.  Nor would doing so have saved Susan.

Whether and how much the Council as a whole knows about Nemesis is a very, very good question.


--- Quote ---
The ability of wizards to mess with technology does go a fair ways to counter that, and Harry has been able to contain that to some extent when he has tried, so I have a reasonable amount of faith that more skilled and experienced wizards would be able to do better.
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No, messing with technology is the problem.  If they could do it selectively, if they only messed up technology when they wanted to, yeah, it would be all good and the balance of power would be retained.  But they cannot do that.

In 1850, crossing the Atlantic was a huge big deal by conventional means.  Either the RC or the WCouncil could use the Nevernever, but neither had any particular advantage there, or if one side did, it was probably the Council.

In 1950, crossing the Atlantic is no big deal...for the Red Court.  A Red can just buy a ticket on a trans-Atlantic flight and be there in less than a day, without dealing with any of the 'overhead' of using the Nevernever.  A Wizard can buy that ticket too...but it's not safe.  At all.

In 1870, sending a fast message meant a telegraph message.  Either the Council or the Court can do that equally well, since the Wizard doesn't have to interact with the tech.  In 1970, sending a fast message means using the phone.  The Court can do that as easily as you or me, but it's a huge headache for the Council.  (We've seen that in-text, Harry mentions that the Council uses telephones like everyone else, but with a lot more service calls.)

Land-lines are bad enough, but by 2000 it's moving to wireless communication depending on microelectronics, which is way worse for the Council.  In fact, it's totally impractical for the Council, but Ortega or the Red King can use an iPhone as well as anybody else.

Cars are problematic for Wizards.  Computers are impractical, except via hired staff.  It all adds up to an ever-greater vulnerability on the Council's part, one they were sort of aware of before the war, but not taking nearly seriously enough.

Which is proven by the events of Summer Knight.  A key point of that whole business is that the Council is getting their collective asses handed to them by the Red Court, and their chances of fighting back depend very heavily on getting Mab to let them use the Ways of Winter to counteract the Court's transport and communications advantages.  If Harry had failed in that, it probably would have meant the Court won the war.

Now, granted, Mab balances her scales.  She knew they were twisting the Accords, and sooner or later she'd probably have handed the Red King his ass in some obscure, twisted revenge.  But that wouldn't have done the White Council, or the human race, any good.  The Council would still be wiped out and the Court (and other nasties too) still have been free to indulge themselves for a while.

LordDresden2:

--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 02:05:32 PM ---

--- Quote ---This made the White Council vulnerable, but the Senior Council and the rest of the older Wizards were not fully aware of how much that changed everything.
--- End quote ---

You buy into Harry's prejudices on this front, then ?
--- End quote ---

No, I observe the events of Grave Peril and Summer Knight, among other things, to observe that Harry's opinion on this subject is valid.  I don't agree with Harry's attitude about the elders on the Council across the board, but he's right that they were dangerously complacent and out of touch.

It may not have been entirely their fault, Peabody was in play, and I wouldn't be surprised if others were at work as well.  But the result is much the same.


--- Quote ---
We see what happens when the Red Court trespass on Winter in DB (they must have, to attack the Council in the Ways, because the Council only ave access to Ways in Winter); they get a through hammering in PG as a direct result of Faerie actions.
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Yeah, but they were already winning even without crossing into Winter.  That turned out to be an unforced error, granted.


--- Quote ---
We also see what happens in Changes when they make a false peace offer; they get exterminated.


--- End quote ---

Yes, by then the tide of war had turned.  Even without Harry's turning the Court's trap against them, the odds of a Council victory were good by the time of Changes.  But to get to that point they had had to survive several near-death experiences, and they achieved it as much by luck as good management.


--- Quote ---
We see, in SG, Mab acting to punish Nicodemus for his violation of truce with the Archive in SmF.
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Which would have helped Ivy exactly how, if Harry and Co. had not been in time to save her?


--- Quote ---
The evidence does not come down in favour of Accords violations being trivial things to get away with.  Therfore the Red Court absolutely need that casus belli.
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Oh, no doubt!  That's why they went to the trouble in the first place!

But at the same time, it's simply not that hard to create situations where the pretext will be made available.  Harry was a handy way, for various reasons, but by no means the only way.


--- Quote ---

--- Quote ---How does that save Susan?
--- End quote ---


It doesn't.  Why is Susan's life worth more than the tens of thousands the war has taken, and why should anyone other than Harry find his choice there acceptable?
--- End quote ---

Because the huge majority of human beings, including most Wizards, would do the same thing in the same situation (at least in essence, the details might vary).  Harry's reaction was the normal human reaction.  You always bet on people prioritizing their own loved ones over strangers.  Exceptions exist, but they're just that.

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