The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
wardenferry419:
What would Bianca's equal in the WC be? Luccio or Morgan?
Arjan:
--- Quote from: wardenferry419 on December 15, 2017, 09:48:09 PM ---What would Bianca's equal in the WC be? Luccio or Morgan?
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It is about comparable position and Harry would do I suppose but Simon and ritinue were overkill, that strike was meant to seriously harm the white councils combat strength not just to get equal befor negotiating.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 15, 2017, 09:24:02 PM ---This discussion feels like it's reaching an impasse, so I am going to trim bits that feel deadlocked.
Have you an exact quote to hand? I am pretty sure she says combat strength.
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We know the average age of thee wardens went down and we know Ramirez was speculating about lowering recruiting standards even more. I remember the quote but I forgot the book so I can not easily find it.
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No it wouldn't. They get the peace treaty, status quo re-established, they no longer have the right to demand anything. Harry parsing this as being about not giving in to bullies is a self-serving rationale for not accepting the political necessity of give and take to maintain peace and save lives.
When?
The Council say "yes, we got your peace offer, we accept the terms." The Reds change the terms. They are now outside the protection of the Accords. They get exterminated in a few days.
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Really? That is too far removed from the reality in the dresdenverse. Nobody would expect that. If that were the case there would be no war in the supernatural world at all.
--- Quote ---The thing that seems worth keeping front and centre here is that Mab is an entity, from a mythical tradition, where no amount of murder or slaughter can be anywhere near so big a crime as breaking your word.
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She is not breaking her word. It is just that the accord do not enforce that much. Mab does not want to be dragged down in policing all conflicts in the supernatural world.
--- Quote ---Yes I do. For two reasons.
One, that the Red Court are a martial organisation. We know they can't summon Outsiders, because only humans can. We know they are lousy at magic generally, because Arianna, one of their oldest and strongest, is about as capable and flexible in her magical duel as a two-bit hobby sorcerer like Kravos. Nobody has ever said the Red Court's strength is assessed by their ability to bring in allies. Eb and WoJ say the White Coucnil's is. Because, I would say, fighting smart rather than just hard is what makes wizards wizards.
And secondly, because the Red Court's allies do not actually help them. They set up Bianca, dragging the Reds into a war they cannot win. They summon Outsiders to supposedly help the Reds fight the White Council at the end of DB (and possibly also lie to them about imminent post-Darkhallow help being on its way) which leads directly to the Red Court getting near-obliterated by Summer in PG. And when the Reds are on the ropes in Changes, their supposed allies pursue their own interests elsewhere and leave the Red Court to die.
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The red court did think it had enough strength assembled at Chichen Itza to beat off any assault. The probably wanted Harry to try because it would fail. There is no reason to think Cowl did not try for the darkhallow.
With their allies they nearly defeated the white council, I would not discard them.
--- Quote ---If you are willing to disregard all the evidence I have pointed out as to how Mab is absolutely reliable as an enforcer of the Accords, yes.
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Because nobody in the books takes your position, not even something that looks like it and I do not think Mab would bind herself to police the supernatural world to that extend. She does not even police Winter to that extend.
The accords are much less than you seem to think.
--- Quote ---You think everybody who would like to see the White Council taken down has to be a deliberate ally of the Red Court? That feels to me like imposing a very dubious duality on a complex supernatural setting with multiple power groups each with their own agenda.
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The Fomor has been helping the red court before and are a known foe of the fairy courts. Their agendas were compatible. The coordination of their last attack suggests they just went in even more.
--- Quote ---You have some reason for thinking the Fomor have no decent intelligence capacities, here ?
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Would they not retink their strategy of attacking the white council after the complete destruction of the red court by the white council? But if they already had attacked it would be too late.
Mark that there had been no declaration of war, just a surprise attack apparently without provocation. It seems to be OK under the accords. We have to see how the peace nogotiations will end.
--- Quote ---So you are disregarding the post-Changes evidence that expanding into the space made by the fall of the Red Court is exactly what the Fomor are doing ?
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That was after the fact. Of course they try to grab whatever they can get but they have also chosen their enemies.
--- Quote ---If you want to apply that to the Red Court's "sacrifice party" (despite that it is actually about working a major piece of ritual magic to win a war and all the sacrifices we see are to that end) why are you reluctant to apply it to the Accords as we see them enforced?
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Because the way you seem to think the accords work is not how they seem to work and is also not what I expect from a set of rules based on weregeld, duelling and such things. Not from old style beings. This is not how things used to work and the supernatural world usually is more than several centuries behind in many respects.
Just go a millenium back in mentality and then you get a better idea about how the Sidhe and oother supernaturals work. They are not that modern.
--- Quote ---You are for some reason discarding the possibility of conversions, here? Offering people the chance to become a vampire and live forever? Despite that we are told at the end of Changes that when the Red Court was annihilated, that took out people all through governments and other power structures around their part of the world?
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That would work if they were expanding in a purely mortal world but that does not work with other supernatural groups.
--- Quote ---They are for protecting signatories. I don't know why you keep moving away from me making this point.
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Because nothing in the settings supports that. Mark that when Marcone was abducted Gard needed Harry to call upon the accords. If Harry had not taken action nothing would have happened.
--- Quote ---The Whites hunting the low-power magicians in WN is not an Accords violation, because the low-power magicians are not affiliated with the White Council. Harry stepping in to protect them is something he does of his own volition, not because the Council ordered him to.
Likewise, Susan or any of the other victims in GP are not Accords violations. Because regular humans are not protected under the Accords. mab does not have to lift a finger in their defence.
I do not believe this in the slightest. Exterminate the Reds without cause, and you're as much at fault as Nicodemus is for attacking Ivy without cause.
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But if there was nobody to call upon the accords or demand retribution nothing would happen. Ask Gard.
--- Quote ---And faerie are not Norse. We see the Norse mythos in the DV as a separate thing. Odin, in his Kringle guise, has to some extent signed up to play by Faerie rules.
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This was the culture and law in much of europe with slight variations. The irish would not have acted much different. Njal is even a celtic name, it is a norse version of Neil.
--- Quote ---Bianca is promoted to a Margravine; one step below a Duke, two below the Red King. Give that the red Court definitely has barons and knights, and that set of titles implies the existence of earls and counts and so on, she is nearer the top than the bottom of their ladder. The White Council has the Merlin, the Senior Council, and everyone else. Someone in the middle rank is the appropriate exchange.
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Formal ranks are not everything and the white council is very conscious about social position. It is about a comparable place in the other group and Simon + ritinue is way above Bianca.
--- Quote ---Yep. The non-suicidal nature which led them to sign the Accords and spent centuries abiding by them and not getting into wars they can't win. The nature that could have been restored by Harry refusing to be baited into starting a war, reporting to Eb, having Eb draw together the Grey Council and like-minded souls like Luccio earlier, sit down and negotiate with Ortega, and get rid of the Red Court's so-called "allies" in order to restore the status quo that's been shown to work for centuries, and save at least the forty thousand lives the nerve-gas bomb killed in the Congo at the end of DB. (Like preventing 9/11 ten times over.)
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Arjan:
Also the Fomor are betraying everything far too easy for Mab to be the violent and extremely effective defender of the accords members. It is in their nature to betray and Lea expected betrayal in some sort in the short story but they are aware how things work and few supernaturals will knowingly follow their nature blindly if it leads to immediate dead.
It does not.
wardenferry419:
Formor are a strange group. They have strong holds on various US and European cities. Their main actions have been enslavement and betrayal. They have received a smackdown from Marcone, Murphy, and Molly. Several different supernatural groups are directly opposed to them. I don't think Harry has had a direct, in person dealing with them. Their long term goal seems to be revenge. They are like supernatural sea cockroaches.
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