The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: forumghost on December 12, 2017, 03:00:34 AM ---Which is not unreasonable when talking about human conflict. But this is the Red Court. They literally can only exist, thrive, and propogate through murder and slavery.
--- End quote ---
The numbers I quote above seem to me to indicate that murder is not actually a thing they do as a general policy. Nor am I entirely convinced that slavery rather than symbiosis is impossible for them; Ortega at least clearly thinks in terms of sustainability for his food supply.
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on December 12, 2017, 03:27:52 AM ---Yes, they could do so, if both parties desired it. But the Red Court intended war no matter what, they were simply looking for a way to pretend to be the aggrieved party. Under those conditions, there was no peace option.
--- End quote ---
I do not believe they intended war no matter what, because they have waited centuries for the right option*. It's not about pretending to be the aggrieved party, it's about actually being the aggrieved party under the letter of Mab's Accords, because as we see repeatedly, not respecting those gets you killed. That they manipulated Harry into breaking that law does not matter; we also see over and over that with Faerie the letter of the law matters and the spirit is immaterial.
--- Quote --- There was a 'delay hostilities' option, and if the Council was using that time to prepare, it might even be a defensible option.
--- End quote ---
Looking at their relative capacities to increase their strength, the White Council pre-DB would need to carry out minimal recruiting to remain ahead in this arms race.
--- Quote ---But there's no evidence that the Peabody-influenced Senior Council would have even realized the difference.
--- End quote ---
I beg leave to doubt that also.
If Harry had not burned Bianca's place, but had told Eb that the Red Court were trying to manipulate a casus belli, how do you think Eb would have reacted ?
*Either that or they had actually been willing to live peacefully and something changed relatively recently. In which case it is the something that changed that is the problem, not the existence of the Red Court, and Ortega was a prime ally to have thrown away. (Or, as I believe, will be a prime ally when it becomes clear that recreating the Red Court is an essential part of preserving reality and he comes out of hiding.)
the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh:
--- Quote from: Arjan on December 12, 2017, 04:49:26 AM ---Regardless how weak the council really was it was looking weak and it was acting weak and that attracts vultures.
--- End quote ---
Changes demonstrates how "weak" the Council actually was, when it came to choosing to go on the offensive. In that situation the Red Court lasts a matter of days.
They have the strength to match a position of confidence. Refraining from genocide in the interest of a peaceful solution and restoring what had previously been established as centuries of co-existence is not looking weak, it is demonstrating that they are law-abiding members of the supernatural community.
forumghost:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 01:57:11 AM ---The numbers I quote above seem to me to indicate that murder is not actually a thing they do as a general policy. Nor am I entirely convinced that slavery rather than symbiosis is impossible for them; Ortega at least clearly thinks in terms of sustainability for his food supply.
--- End quote ---
1) That logic is asinine.
The conceit of Urban Fantasy series is that they occur in the real world, so of course the statistics are the same- The story runs on the assumption that it happens in our world and we just don't know it (the Masquerade), so assuming that the number are negligible because the figures are the same doesn't work- eg, Tilly mentioned in Changes that the Red Court attacks described by Susan sound like the Mexican Cartels, because in the DF, the Red Court runs the Cartels. Saying that the statistics being the same proves the a non-factor is akin to saying that because WW1 happened IRL, the story is wrong and Kemmler wasn't really behind it in the DF.
2) A Symbiotic relationship would imply mutual benefits. There is no mutual benefits with the Red Court. The areas they controlled had people trained to act as walking juice boxes from a young age via indoctrination and drug addiction.
3) It is literally impossible for the Red Court to reproduce via anything other than murder. It's a fact of their Biology. Why is it that you seem to place a higher right-to-life to the Red Court then to their Victims? Because as said, there not being victims is physically impossible due to their reproductive cycle.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 02:04:14 AM ---I do not believe they intended war no matter what, because they have waited centuries for the right option*.
--- End quote ---
No.
Two major things had already happened to upset the old balance of power before the story even opens. One was the rising influence of Nemesis, the other the technological revolution. In recent decades, it's become possible to travel, communicate, and otherwise operate around the world in a way that the Wizards have great difficulty coping with. This made the White Council vulnerable, but the Senior Council and the rest of the older Wizards were not fully aware of how much that changed everything.
The old balance of power was already gone by the time the story opens. That's why, or part of why, the Red Court was willing to take on the Council at all. They had not waited centuries for the right moment, they waited at most a few years, 20 tops. Harry was a handy pretext, but absent him something else would have worked.
(Also, it's possible that Harry looked like a good choice because of Margaret. We don't have enough data to say anything on that, but it's not improbable.)
--- Quote ---
It's not about pretending to be the aggrieved party, it's about actually being the aggrieved party under the letter of Mab's Accords, because as we see repeatedly, not respecting those gets you killed.
--- End quote ---
Nope.
It might eventually get you killed, but not fast enough to save the Council in the mean time. And as for being the aggrieved party, all they have to do is set up some situation where a Council member faces an intolerable choice, it's not that hard to do. Harry was just convenient.
--- Quote ---
If Harry had not burned Bianca's place, but had told Eb that the Red Court were trying to manipulate a casus belli, how do you think Eb would have reacted ?
--- End quote ---
How does that save Susan?
--- Quote ---
*Either that or they had actually been willing to live peacefully and something changed relatively recently. In which case it is the something that changed that is the problem, not the existence of the Red Court, and Ortega was a prime ally to have thrown away.
--- End quote ---
Nemesis and the technological revolution was what had changed (at least, there might be other factors too, I wouldn't be surprised if Kemmler's activities played some role). The old days were over.
--- Quote ---
(Or, as I believe, will be a prime ally when it becomes clear that recreating the Red Court is an essential part of preserving reality and he comes out of hiding.)
--- End quote ---
Ortega had already set things up in such a way (or been manipulated to set things up in such a way, the difference is moot) that there was no way to achieve such an alliance. It wasn't one of the options available.
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