The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

A pattern in last 4 books

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Ananda:

--- Quote from: Cozarkian on October 29, 2017, 09:48:24 PM ---Interesting. Is the sacrifices one makes for one's daughter (and sons?) an indicator of how good a person is in the DV? From best to worst:

Harry - Willing to burn the world to save his daughter.
Nicodemus - Kills his daughter for self-serving reasons, also much of what Lord Raith does.

Additions? Disagreements?

--- End quote ---
I think the people (and their children) in the world that Dresden was willing to burn might disagree on him being the role model for how to behave. That’s called selfishness and reckless disregard for other people and beings. 

Nic and Deirdre said over and over that they are trying to save the universe. I put Deirdre’s sacrifice at the top of the list. Dying for the universe; she’d be a messiah figure in a religious mythos.
And, don’t forget her, Deirdre is a grown woman making her own choices. She is not secondary to Nic in this scenario. She is the primary figure. That Nic would help her in this terrible and selfless decision shows that he, also, is acting in a selfless way to benefit everything in the universe.
Deirdre is a hero.

wardenferry419:
In my most polite opinion, I will have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1. Each individual has some people that are more important to that individual than others. For me, I call it my personal circle of concern. Inside that circle are people that I value more than everybody outside that circle. Many times I have thought that I value those people inside the circle more than myself. If given a choice between saving my wife or son over someone I don't know or never met; well, that is an easy choice. It is not a reckless disregard; it is a calculated disregard.
2. Deirdre died believing her sacrifice had a higher purpose. Good intentions but not from a good person and certainly not a hero. We have seen Deirdre gleefully kill others not out of a dire necessity, but, because she simply wanted to kill that person. Compare Harry's fight with Asher with Deirdre's fight with the churchmice on the boat in DM. Still see her as a hero?

Ananda:

--- Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 29, 2017, 11:52:12 PM ---In my most polite opinion, I will have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1. Each individual has some people that are more important to that individual than others. For me, I call it my personal circle of concern. Inside that circle are people that I value more than everybody outside that circle. Many times I have thought that I value those people inside the circle more than myself. If given a choice between saving my wife or son over someone I don't know or never met; well, that is an easy choice. It is not a reckless disregard; it is a calculated disregard.
2. Deirdre died believing her sacrifice had a higher purpose. Good intentions but not from a good person and certainly not a hero. We have seen Deirdre gleefully kill others not out of a dire necessity, but, because she simply wanted to kill that person. Compare Harry's fight with Asher with Deirdre's fight with the churchmice on the boat in DM. Still see her as a hero?

--- End quote ---
Thanks for the reply. In response, I’d say:
Point one- yes, of course. But the “let the world burn” attitude only makes sense for the individual, not the whole. It’s why most countries don’t let victims or victims’ families set the penalty for crimes as they are not rational actors and able to make the best choices for a society given their closeness to the situation typically. Of course, though, I’d save my child first given the choice. The main issue I cited was setting the “let the world burn” irrationality as the ideal for a functional society.

Point two- I’m sort of joking.
That said, Deirdre still made the biggest, most consequential selfless sacrifice one can make for the safety of the universe. I don’t actually believe in “heroes” as a real life concept. She exhibited some anti-social behaviour, she lived apart from civilisation, she killed, she may have even enjoyed it. However, she also sacrificed herself to save the universe. No “bad” stuff she had done prior negates that just as a lifetime of being kind doesn’t negate a terrible act at the end if it. People are complex. And remember, we know very little of her inner-life. Everything presented to us is through Dresden’s bias with little to no insight into her.

I also thought her sacrifice was a sort of a parallel or parallel adjacent to the Jesus mythos. I wondered, on reading it, if that was what Butcher meant to do with it.

wardenferry419:
The ideal of a functional society should be "Don't f#(k with me, I won't F#(k with you and we"ll get stuff done."  Pretty simple to understand; but, for some reason, difficult in the application.
Deirdre was a grown woman and she made her choice; but, I hate Nico for giving his child that choice to begin with.

Rasins:
While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing. 

Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife.  Further she KNEW there was an afterlife.  Granted she didn't think it thought.  Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.

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