Author Topic: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions  (Read 12982 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« on: October 21, 2017, 07:21:20 AM »
I thought it might be fun to look at some minor issues in Proven Guilty.

Harry hits the Winter Wellspring with Summer Fire which causes every Winter Fae on the border with Summer to rush back to Arctis Tor to try to kill Harry.  After getting back to Chicago Harry discovers that this was what Lily hoped would happen.   Harry figured out that Lily and Maeve were working together because when time got slowed down around Arctis Tor, this allowed Summer forces on the border with Winter to leave their defenses and go attack the Red Court and only Maeve had the ability to mess with time and how it flowed around Arctis Tor.  (OK Mab or Mother Winter could do the same thing but Lily wasn't talking to either of them.)

So here's mystery #1:  Did Harry have to specifically hit the Winter Well Spring to make this plan pay off?  Because if he did it seems like a real low probability move by Lily.  Harry could have fried Eldest Fetch without ever touching Winter's Well and how could Lily even predict Harry would have to get to the top of Arctis Tor in order to rescue Molly?  Theoretically, the battle could have taken place downstairs or in some room within the castle or on the stairs leading to the top.  Perhaps Maeve might have suggested where Harry would have to go to find Eldest Fetch and Molly. 

Even so, what if Harry hadn't hit the Well with Summer Fire and instead used Summer Fire to knock down a wall or parapet that was an integral part of the castle.  Would this have had the same effect on the Winter Fae at Summer's border?  I can't prove this but I have a feeling it would have been the same or near enough to make no difference in the overall result.  The way Jim has written about Mab's palace; though admittedly that's very little, suggests Arctid Tor is almost alive, and perhaps even sentient.  The way the castle reacted to blood being spilled on its floor is suggestive of the first and in Cold Days Harry mentions some lights and or shifting colors within the walls that he decided were probably unsafe to stare at for too long.  This suggests Artic Tor is more than another pretty Faerie Ice Castle.  There may be a specific psychic connection between Arctis Tor and all of Winter.  Someone could stand outside and throw rocks or even Hellfire at it and it wouldn't cause a reaction but an attack using Summer Fire or perhaps any specific Summer magic would cause all of Winter to come back to defend their Capitol.  So that's my answer to my own question.   

Minor mystery #2:  Was Maeve surprised that Lily's plan worked?  Maeve didn't think very highly of Lily so I wouldn't be surprised if she expected Lily's plan to fail.   If this was the case that would mean Maeve wasn't happy she had to slow time and allow Summer to attack the Red Court, but she had no choice if she wanted to continue to deceive Lily.

Minor mystery #3:  Was Maeve surprised that Harry survived his encounter with Eldest Fetch?  I'm guessing Maeve knew about Eldest Fetch because during the final confrontation with the Scarecrow Harry realizes he's dealing with a fetch, but one that has been granted extra power.  This suggests Nemesis involvement, though it doesn't absolutely prove it, but what else explains this?  If Maeve expected Harry to die than except for continuing to reinforce Lily's trust in her, Maeve didn't have a very good day.  She had to help Lily attack the Red Court which, even if it wasn't a full ally was at least a useful asset, and the annoying wizard survived another violent encounter that should have killed him. 

Do you have any different explanations or other questions about unsolved Proven Guilty mysteries that; as far as you know, haven't been discussed yet?
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2017, 03:25:20 PM »
I would imagine that hitting the wellspring was the best case scenario, but any kind of major damage (not an unlikely situation with Harry involved) would probably have done it.

Offline raidem

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2017, 03:33:23 PM »
I wonder if hitting the Well with Summer Fire helped any with containing or fighting Nemesis infection at large in the Winter Well.

Maeve probably worked with Lily intending it to completely free Lea, but I was wondering the above too.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 06:16:45 PM »
I suspect releasing Summer fire anywhere in AT would have had the same effect, since AT IS the heart of winter.
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Offline raidem

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 06:25:15 PM »
I can't believe I missed the nuances you talk about in the OP.  I must have done a rushed read or something or just looked at the topic and jumped in.

Quote
So here's mystery #1:  Did Harry have to specifically hit the Winter Well Spring to make this plan pay off?
Eldest Fetch made it certain that Harry was going to hit the Winter Well. It may be that Mab had a deal where she offered the service of EF to another. EF job was to free Lea.  EF hid behind Lea's statue within the Winter Well so it was going to get hit regardless. If EF wasn't in employ of another, then perhaps this was a way for Mab to reveal a nemfected Lea in anticipation of a Cold Day's plot. This Lea and the circumstances around it I'm sure created some doubt in Harry's mind several years later in a pivotal plot in CD.  If Mab for whatever reason (maybe due to a deal she made) was prohibited from giving the order to pull her soldiers from Summer's border's herself, EF maneuvered to have them recalled without Mab giving the order.  It's just that Mab didn't count on herself being endangered with the full blast of Harry's attack which included Summer's fire on EF but hit Winter's Wellspring instead.

Hitting the Winter Wellspring was critical in bringing back the Winter Armies and putting Mab in danger.

Quote
Minor mystery #2:  Was Maeve surprised that Lily's plan worked?  Maeve didn't think very highly of Lily so I wouldn't be surprised if she expected Lily's plan to fail.   If this was the case that would mean Maeve wasn't happy she had to slow time and allow Summer to attack the Red Court, but she had no choice if she wanted to continue to deceive Lily.
It was the fallback option for nemesis. They didn't take out Mab or whatever they wanted to do in PG. So Maeve then had to make lemonhead out of lemons and feed the lie to Lily that she assisted Lily in taking out RCV and Outsiders assisting them.

EF was beholden to Mab. So, Mab used him to pay off a favor to do something she didn't want done.  Or, she used him to lure Harry to fulfill a mission for her and was just killed in that endeavor. Just another sacrifice in a list of millions of such sacrifices.  Or, he was nemfected and tried to play Mab's creature, Mab was suspicious. She let Harry take him out.  Mab had to act like Molly meant nothing to her, EF would snap her neck at a moments notice. Nemesis was likely watching from somewhere. So, Mab and her Fetches had to look bloodthirsty vs Molly and Splattercon!!!.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 06:52:45 PM by raidem »
"That's it???  It's really that simple? 
LIES!  Damn lies!  It's a cover up!
WOJ: http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.0.html

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 08:05:07 AM »
I really want to know who Molly thought she was talking to before she was taken by Fetches.
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Offline knnn

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 12:01:39 PM »
My thought has long been that Lily wasn't smart enough to come up with that plan (as it essentially involved outsmarting Mab), and that it was actually Nemesis' idea all along to get Harry to AT.   As for the super-Fetch, remember that it deliberately hid behind the Wellspring (which is why Harry tried shooting through it).   Coincidence or Nemfection?

We've seen that Cat Sith can get nemfected, why not Eldest Fetch?   As evidence, I'd like to point out an interesting weirdness:   Earlier, when Harry/Thomas are trying to get away from the Scarecrow, he causes it to slip on ice.   On the face of it, this is a little implausible.  After all, we've seen (Cold Days) that even the Winter Knight has no problem running on ice, and this is a power being from deepest Winter.     

To me this is circumstantial evidence that Scarecrow may have been infected and therefore doing Nemesis' bidding all along.  As such, Maeve's plan to get Harry to
 the Wellspring and hit it becomes slightly less implausible.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 12:06:41 PM »
Good catch about fetch on ice. Very similar to difference in Cat Sith attacks while being control by Nemesis. Nemesis does not have a natural feel for host's body.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 05:57:54 PM »
Agreed, good catch on the slipping on the ice thing.

However, we know that one of Aurora's retainers (forget which one) used glamor twice to fool Dresden about who he was (disguised himself as a ogre and as a unicorn).  Why not disguise himself to look like winter (Eldest Fetch), and thus slip on the ice.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2017, 09:00:40 AM »
We really need a timeline of PG-related events.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2017, 04:27:27 PM »
What do you mean?  Like an outline of events that happened in PG based on timeline, or something else?
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2017, 08:04:48 PM »
Maybe events associated with or occurring with PG. I feel like Harry stepped into the end of that problem and we missed the setup.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 12:31:34 AM »
Earlier, when Harry/Thomas are trying to get away from the Scarecrow, he causes it to slip on ice.   On the face of it, this is a little implausible.  After all, we've seen (Cold Days) that even the Winter Knight has no problem running on ice, and this is a power being from deepest Winter.

Thomas also did way the hell less damage cutting the scarecrow with a steel sword than one would ordinarily expect from a usual Fae.

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 12:49:11 AM »
I really want to know who Molly thought she was talking to before she was taken by Fetches.
My money is on the Fetch looking like Harry, or time travel Harry being there.  The former fits historically with the bad guys' methods for getting at the Carpenters, but I don't think we saw any fetches imitate a human. 

The latter would be twisted, but is obviously a long shot because it requires time travel, and it doesn't explain exactly how the fetches would have gotten in; they'd have to have been with ttHarry, looking like friends or allies, for Molly to invite the group collectively. 

But at that point, Harry being there becomes superfluous, because they could just look like him.  The only point would be to allow him to ensure they didn't hurt anyone too much. 

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Proven Guilty - some minor unanswered questions
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2017, 07:29:15 AM »
My guess was a fetch disguised as a human or Sandra Marling.
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