Author Topic: Was Ascher telling the truth?  (Read 25304 times)

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2017, 09:15:51 PM »
Thank you, Mr. Death. I think I was approaching the subject in the wrong way.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2017, 09:22:14 PM »
When Harry tried to bring in Molly for trial the merlins reaction to was something like "why did you not kill her yet" and "you are wasting time". Even with a warden they do not really trust like Harry the overview is minimal.

I am sure a lot of wardens do their jobs as expected but there is a lot of room for abusing power, cutting corners, acting on tunnel vision, ....

And little chance of discovery. In such an organisation you need only a few bad apples to get a reputation among people who do not dare to complain because there is no independent complains department and wardens will cover each other. Because that is what members of closed organisations do if they get the chance.

And if a bad apple is in a position of influence others will copy his behaviour because they think it is normal.

Wardens have power. People behave differently around them which makes them less aware what is going on.

And most importantly pressure to get results can do the rest. The whole structure promotes abuse of power and no real brakes on it. The only brakes are the wardens own consciences. That is not enough.

So I do not think they will all the run out to kill the kids but if one does there is little to stop him and other abuse will even be more likely.

As I said, for various reasons some of them perhaps understandable, the White Council's justice for breakers of the Laws, has become a zero tolerance policy... 

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2017, 09:31:24 PM »
Not all magic users who are not WC are warlocks. Some are doing good and just lack the juice to leave amateur level.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2017, 09:37:57 PM »
Because she was a warlock.

The paranetters are not warlocks.

That's what it boils down to. The Wardens might be fanatical, but they're fanatical about killing warlocks, not just lopping the heads off any minor practitioner they can get away with.

They don't have a quota. There isn't some "results" leader board they have to keep up on that's going to make them want to kill more people.

In fact, Harry makes it explicitly clear in White Night that the people who make up the Paranet are explicitly under the protection of the White Council. They have a hotline that minor talents can call to get people like Harry to show up. Half the plot of White Night was framing the Wardens because otherwise the minor talents would have been able to call them for protection.

So I don't get it. Why do you seem to think the Wardens are going to look at a list of innocent minor talents and consider it a hit list?
No, I am saying that if there is abuse of power there are no checks and balances to stop it and it can easily spread. I expect it to be covered up as well to protect the good name of the wardens.

The whole organisation is structured in such a way that begs for abuse of power. How much abuse of power there really is is for Jim to decide but I would not trust an organisation structured like that in the real world at all.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2017, 11:42:41 PM »
But there are reports -- Dresden makes mention of making them. Morgan must have someone he has to report to, otherwise why wouldn't he have just summarily executed Dresden in the first book?

You're making some pretty stern pronouncements about their procedures, but we don't even see their procedures. You're assuming there's no oversight at all, when there is evidence -- like I said, Dresden makes reports -- that there is.

There's a White Council hotline that minor talents and even normals can call. Even before the Paranet.

And a lot of potential White Council members could come from the minor talents. It's in the White Council's best interests to have good relationships with groups like the Paranet because they are actively harmed by having a bad relationship with them.

Again, it's notable that the start of the plot in White Night is specifically framing the Wardens so that the victims don't go to the White Council for help -- i.e., if Vittorio and Madrigal hadn't gone out of the way to stop them, the minor talents could have scuttled the whole plot by calling on the White Council.

That wouldn't be the case if the Wardens were a group that would kill minor talents just because they could get away with it.
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Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2017, 03:46:02 AM »
But a state does not hide. It claims territory and authority over people in a clear visible way. Terrorist organisations and criminal gangs hide.

Doesn't matter.  If you've go the power, you get to set the rules.


Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2017, 03:52:24 AM »
Good point, but maybe duplicate and adapt some of its functions.

It's a potential part of the solution, but by itself it isn't enough, and could even make things worse.

Imagine you're a kid/young adult (age anywhere from 10 to 20) who had discovered your talent, and that other magical talents exist, but that's all you know.  So you go looking for information, and you find the Paranet.  Fine.

How do you know you can trust it?  It's one more Internet-based data source among countless other occult, supernatural, and scientific sites. 

The bad guys are likely to set up their own real-looking 'occult mutual help associations', too.  Should our hypothetical youth trust the Paranet, the Metanet, the Magenet, or the Psinet?  They're all going to have some stuff in common, but how does he or she know that only the Paranet is giving it all straight?

It's a variation on the same old hypothetical I've cited several times over the years:  a new talent discovers two textbooks.  One is Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy.  One is Introduction to Magic by Professor Relmmek.  Both purport to be basic textbooks for the beginning talent.

How does our uninformed talent know he should trust McCoy and burn the Relmmek book?  McCoy's book starts out with the Seven Laws at the beginning, but how does the new talent know that that's the straight dope, or not?

The problem has no ready solution.  The same problem applies to the Paranet.


Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2017, 04:03:48 AM »
Because she was a warlock.

The paranetters are not warlocks.

That's what it boils down to. The Wardens might be fanatical, but they're fanatical about killing warlocks, not just lopping the heads off any minor practitioner they can get away with.

They don't have a quota. There isn't some "results" leader board they have to keep up on that's going to make them want to kill more people.

But that doesn't make them much less terrifying to the rest of the magical world.  That fear is quite understandable.  Power is scary, at the best of times, and the Wardens have a bunch of it, both magical and political/social.

Also, the Wardens look like the bad guys to the uninformed talents.  How can you be the good guys when you behead 10 year olds for breaking rules they never heard of?  They are most or less the good guys, but they don't look that way to the outsiders and the uniformed.

The Wardens and the well-informed in the DV know why the good guys sometimes behead 10 year olds, but not nearly all the minor talents know it.  Of those who do know, a lot of them aren't going to want to believe it.

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In fact, Harry makes it explicitly clear in White Night that the people who make up the Paranet are explicitly under the protection of the White Council. They have a hotline that minor talents can call to get people like Harry to show up. Half the plot of White Night was framing the Wardens because otherwise the minor talents would have been able to call them for protection.

This is part of why the Council needs a better PR operation, for everyone's sake.  Even the Paranetters fear the Wardens, it was very easy to frame them because everybody is already scared of them.  That fear is not entirely justified...but it's not 100% unjustified, either.  The Wardens have a deserved reputation for ruthlessness.  They're not as ruthless and indifferent as people think they are, but they are ruthless enough to make people nervous around them.


Offline Arjan

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2017, 04:22:31 AM »
But there are reports -- Dresden makes mention of making them. Morgan must have someone he has to report to, otherwise why wouldn't he have just summarily executed Dresden in the first book?
Because his personal ethics did not support that. Harry was surprised as well. Nothing would have stopped him as nothing had stopped his earlier and later abuse of power.
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You're making some pretty stern pronouncements about their procedures, but we don't even see their procedures. You're assuming there's no oversight at all, when there is evidence -- like I said, Dresden makes reports -- that there is.
You can put whatever you like in those reports. The wardens are fundamentally understaffed.
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There's a White Council hotline that minor talents and even normals can call. Even before the Paranet.

And a lot of potential White Council members could come from the minor talents. It's in the White Council's best interests to have good relationships with groups like the Paranet because they are actively harmed by having a bad relationship with them.
One would think so. Mark that even if there is a trial there is no defense and the accused is not allowed to understand the trial or say anything. That does not promote trust in the judicial system in any way.
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Again, it's notable that the start of the plot in White Night is specifically framing the Wardens so that the victims don't go to the White Council for help -- i.e., if Vittorio and Madrigal hadn't gone out of the way to stop them, the minor talents could have scuttled the whole plot by calling on the White Council.
It is notable how easy that is and nobody gets the idea of noticing the white council about it in any way. They do not know about any channel to do that safely.
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That wouldn't be the case if the Wardens were a group that would kill minor talents just because they could get away with it.
They are not. It is just that if one of the wardens decides to kill a minor talent because it suits him or he needs someone to carry the blame or he really thinks he is guilty but does not have the time for consulting others or for whatever reason there is not much people can do about it and no real chance to get a complaint taken seriously unless you know someone.

And not just because he can get away with it. Few people kill just because they can get away with it but there is clearly a culture of killing warlocks in stead of giving them a trial because that is simpler and less time consuming. The warden on the phone when Harry called in proven guilty even thought they did not do hearings anymore.

Mark also Bob’s reaction when Harry gets a mantle in dead beat. Bob is being Bob of course but those jokes carry truth.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #69 on: December 12, 2017, 09:13:17 AM »
As Billy Joel sang "It's a matter of trust." Who do you trust, the experienced and reliable warden/cop or the teenaged warlock/punk that says the warden was mean to me? One has done his duty for awhile and the other ignorantly thinks they know everything.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #70 on: December 12, 2017, 02:24:51 PM »
Arjan, please point me to any examples we have of the Wardens executing non-warlock minor talents without cause and without verifying that Black Magic has happened.

Your argument seems predicated on the idea that giving the Wardens access to the Paranet (spoiler alert: They already have access to it; Carlos and Luccio are aware and involved to some extent) will make this not just possible, but apparently inevitable.

Because his personal ethics did not support that. Harry was surprised as well. Nothing would have stopped him as nothing had stopped his earlier and later abuse of power.
And Morgan was considered among the "worst" of the fanatical Wardens. So, the guy seen as the unreasonable boogie-man, the man most likely to, in Dresden's words, lop the heads off baby bunnies if he suspected them of black magic...

... also has strict ethics and a devout adherence to the laws such that he doesn't abuse them.

Kiiiiiiiinda makes you think that maybe, just maybe, that kind of ethics and adherence to the laws is something that's purposefully instilled in the Wardens, doesn't it?

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You can put whatever you like in those reports. The wardens are fundamentally understaffed.
What are you basing this on? Someone reads Harry's reports. There is oversight. Harry's position is one of oversight.

They were understaffed because of the war, and then they bounced back to even more numbers than they had before it started.

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One would think so. Mark that even if there is a trial there is no defense and the accused is not allowed to understand the trial or say anything. That does not promote trust in the judicial system in any way.
Again: This is for warlocks.

After the Warden has found evidence of Black Magic and had it verified by another person, either another Warden or someone like the Merlin. Both the trials we have seen on the page have this happen explicitly -- the Korean kid has the Merlin examine the victims and soul gaze him. Molly has Carlos independently examine her victims and verify that Black Magic has happened.

You're trying to argue that one Warden can just decide willy-nilly that black magic happened and execute whomever he wants without any repercussions or oversight when what we see of the trials indicates the opposite.

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It is notable how easy that is and nobody gets the idea of noticing the white council about it in any way. They do not know about any channel to do that safely.
Yes, there is a fear of the White Council, just like a lot of people have a fear and distrust of the police. That doesn't mean that the Wardens actually are going around and killing whoever they want whenever they want.

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They are not. It is just that if one of the wardens decides to kill a minor talent because it suits him or he needs someone to carry the blame or he really thinks he is guilty but does not have the time for consulting others or for whatever reason there is not much people can do about it and no real chance to get a complaint taken seriously unless you know someone.
Does Luccio seem like the type of commander who doesn't care what her troops are doing?

Does Morgan seem like the type of commander that wouldn't follow up to make sure the laws are being enforced properly?

Those are your top two. They're the ones who set the example for the rest of the Wardens. And they're two scrupulous people who adhere to the Laws and their procedures as if they're gospel.

To date, we haven't seen a Warden who would act the way you're suggesting. The closest we have is probably Morgan who, even though he had decided in his own mind that Dresden was guilty, waited until he thought he had proof before taking action.

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And not just because he can get away with it. Few people kill just because they can get away with it but there is clearly a culture of killing warlocks in stead of giving them a trial because that is simpler and less time consuming. The warden on the phone when Harry called in proven guilty even thought they did not do hearings anymore.
The Warden on the phone was also young and they were, again, at war. Most Warlocks that are combat-capable just don't come quietly. Yes, there is a culture of killing Warlocks. Again: Killing Warlocks, which even the most fanatical Wardens define as "People who have actually, provably violated the Laws of Magic because either I found evidence in their victims or they're literally throwing fireballs and trying to kill me at this particular moment."

So, please, point me to a Warden who's killed an innocent minor practitioner just because they suspected, but hadn't proved, Black Magic.

The thing you're taking as a certainty has just plain not been demonstrated as happening in the books.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2017, 04:30:53 PM »
Warlocks are not human? That is exactly why being branded a warlock is something to be feared by minor talents more so because some wardens can be very creative in explaining the laws when it suits them, see Morgan.

Who did not trust his own system, and he should know.

Who also showed that the white councils attitude to fair trials is not restricted to warlocks. Nobody accused Morgan of being a warlock but he was hooded anyway and had no defense exept for what nepotism brought him. 

We know the warden counted members like Justin so expecting exemplary behaviour from all of them is not realistic. And more important thee is no appeal possible and the whole affair can be finished on site with whoever available.

So much power with so little oversight and no appeal or second opinion is scary. It is not good for people even the best of them.

And what Bob said was not a lie, with that cloack he can.
 
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #72 on: December 12, 2017, 05:15:47 PM »
Again, you're laying out the fears that members of the Paranet might have.

I'm talking about the reality of the situation.

You mention "once they start killing people" as if it's just a given that the Wardens will start executing people on the list just because they have the list.

I'm arguing that A. the Wardens already have the list and B. that is just not a reasonable, realistic expectation given what we've seen of the Wardens.

Morgan's trial was very much a unique situation. Morgan trusted his own system plenty, enough to literally devote his entire life to it. Saying he ran from the Wardens when he was framed does not mean he doesn't trust the Wardens and the White Council as a whole. That whole book is a huge outlier, not indicative of how the White Council or the Wardens normally do things.

Morgan being pursued because he was framed does not indicate that the Wardens are just going to kill whoever they want with no oversight. The idea that there isn't oversight just isn't supported -- there are reports, there are regional commanders, and there are mentions of people reading those reports and following up with their subordinates.

Is it perfect? No, of course not, nothing is. Do people have fear of being branded a Warlock? Yes, just like people have fear of being accused of normal crimes.

But none of that means that the Wardens are just going to start executing people just because they have access to the Paranet.
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #73 on: December 12, 2017, 05:38:35 PM »
Let me suggest an alternative to there being no Wardens. Instead of trying to track, determine guilt either by their actions and/or a soulgaze, and executing them; you let warlocks do whatever they want. Wouldn't that be a nice world to live in; but, only if you are a warlock.
What alternative is there to execution? Rehabilitation, as if criminals and drug addicts never relapse. Which is basically what a warlock is with the added bonus of magical ability. Containment, stick every warlock in DR. How long before it exceeds capacity and/or becomes a source of interest of evil elements?
A person born with magical aptitude is given both a gift and a burden. A gift to use power that few have. A burden to use that gift properly. Would it be it better if novice magic users knew that the WC existed and that there are consequences and punishments for misuse of power? Maybe. But ignorance of the WC does free the novice from the responsibility that hurting others for selfish cause is wrong.That queasy feeling you get before you do bad is not indigestion it is the rumblings of guilt.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Was Ascher telling the truth?
« Reply #74 on: December 12, 2017, 05:53:33 PM »
A police force is there to find and catch criminals but there is a reason police and judge are seperated in a modern society. There are all kinds of safeguards to be build in the wardens simply lack and that is no accident.

That does not mean the wardens will go on a killing spree just for the fun of it but it means there is a lot of room build in for problems to go undetected and I don’t think that is an accident.

Jim build that room to begin with to be used for plot purposes.
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