The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Was Ascher telling the truth?
Mr. Death:
Arjan, please point me to any examples we have of the Wardens executing non-warlock minor talents without cause and without verifying that Black Magic has happened.
Your argument seems predicated on the idea that giving the Wardens access to the Paranet (spoiler alert: They already have access to it; Carlos and Luccio are aware and involved to some extent) will make this not just possible, but apparently inevitable.
--- Quote from: Arjan on December 12, 2017, 04:22:31 AM ---Because his personal ethics did not support that. Harry was surprised as well. Nothing would have stopped him as nothing had stopped his earlier and later abuse of power.
--- End quote ---
And Morgan was considered among the "worst" of the fanatical Wardens. So, the guy seen as the unreasonable boogie-man, the man most likely to, in Dresden's words, lop the heads off baby bunnies if he suspected them of black magic...
... also has strict ethics and a devout adherence to the laws such that he doesn't abuse them.
Kiiiiiiiinda makes you think that maybe, just maybe, that kind of ethics and adherence to the laws is something that's purposefully instilled in the Wardens, doesn't it?
--- Quote ---You can put whatever you like in those reports. The wardens are fundamentally understaffed.
--- End quote ---
What are you basing this on? Someone reads Harry's reports. There is oversight. Harry's position is one of oversight.
They were understaffed because of the war, and then they bounced back to even more numbers than they had before it started.
--- Quote ---One would think so. Mark that even if there is a trial there is no defense and the accused is not allowed to understand the trial or say anything. That does not promote trust in the judicial system in any way.
--- End quote ---
Again: This is for warlocks.
After the Warden has found evidence of Black Magic and had it verified by another person, either another Warden or someone like the Merlin. Both the trials we have seen on the page have this happen explicitly -- the Korean kid has the Merlin examine the victims and soul gaze him. Molly has Carlos independently examine her victims and verify that Black Magic has happened.
You're trying to argue that one Warden can just decide willy-nilly that black magic happened and execute whomever he wants without any repercussions or oversight when what we see of the trials indicates the opposite.
--- Quote ---It is notable how easy that is and nobody gets the idea of noticing the white council about it in any way. They do not know about any channel to do that safely.
--- End quote ---
Yes, there is a fear of the White Council, just like a lot of people have a fear and distrust of the police. That doesn't mean that the Wardens actually are going around and killing whoever they want whenever they want.
--- Quote ---They are not. It is just that if one of the wardens decides to kill a minor talent because it suits him or he needs someone to carry the blame or he really thinks he is guilty but does not have the time for consulting others or for whatever reason there is not much people can do about it and no real chance to get a complaint taken seriously unless you know someone.
--- End quote ---
Does Luccio seem like the type of commander who doesn't care what her troops are doing?
Does Morgan seem like the type of commander that wouldn't follow up to make sure the laws are being enforced properly?
Those are your top two. They're the ones who set the example for the rest of the Wardens. And they're two scrupulous people who adhere to the Laws and their procedures as if they're gospel.
To date, we haven't seen a Warden who would act the way you're suggesting. The closest we have is probably Morgan who, even though he had decided in his own mind that Dresden was guilty, waited until he thought he had proof before taking action.
--- Quote ---And not just because he can get away with it. Few people kill just because they can get away with it but there is clearly a culture of killing warlocks in stead of giving them a trial because that is simpler and less time consuming. The warden on the phone when Harry called in proven guilty even thought they did not do hearings anymore.
--- End quote ---
The Warden on the phone was also young and they were, again, at war. Most Warlocks that are combat-capable just don't come quietly. Yes, there is a culture of killing Warlocks. Again: Killing Warlocks, which even the most fanatical Wardens define as "People who have actually, provably violated the Laws of Magic because either I found evidence in their victims or they're literally throwing fireballs and trying to kill me at this particular moment."
So, please, point me to a Warden who's killed an innocent minor practitioner just because they suspected, but hadn't proved, Black Magic.
The thing you're taking as a certainty has just plain not been demonstrated as happening in the books.
Arjan:
Warlocks are not human? That is exactly why being branded a warlock is something to be feared by minor talents more so because some wardens can be very creative in explaining the laws when it suits them, see Morgan.
Who did not trust his own system, and he should know.
Who also showed that the white councils attitude to fair trials is not restricted to warlocks. Nobody accused Morgan of being a warlock but he was hooded anyway and had no defense exept for what nepotism brought him.
We know the warden counted members like Justin so expecting exemplary behaviour from all of them is not realistic. And more important thee is no appeal possible and the whole affair can be finished on site with whoever available.
So much power with so little oversight and no appeal or second opinion is scary. It is not good for people even the best of them.
And what Bob said was not a lie, with that cloack he can.
Mr. Death:
Again, you're laying out the fears that members of the Paranet might have.
I'm talking about the reality of the situation.
You mention "once they start killing people" as if it's just a given that the Wardens will start executing people on the list just because they have the list.
I'm arguing that A. the Wardens already have the list and B. that is just not a reasonable, realistic expectation given what we've seen of the Wardens.
Morgan's trial was very much a unique situation. Morgan trusted his own system plenty, enough to literally devote his entire life to it. Saying he ran from the Wardens when he was framed does not mean he doesn't trust the Wardens and the White Council as a whole. That whole book is a huge outlier, not indicative of how the White Council or the Wardens normally do things.
Morgan being pursued because he was framed does not indicate that the Wardens are just going to kill whoever they want with no oversight. The idea that there isn't oversight just isn't supported -- there are reports, there are regional commanders, and there are mentions of people reading those reports and following up with their subordinates.
Is it perfect? No, of course not, nothing is. Do people have fear of being branded a Warlock? Yes, just like people have fear of being accused of normal crimes.
But none of that means that the Wardens are just going to start executing people just because they have access to the Paranet.
wardenferry419:
Let me suggest an alternative to there being no Wardens. Instead of trying to track, determine guilt either by their actions and/or a soulgaze, and executing them; you let warlocks do whatever they want. Wouldn't that be a nice world to live in; but, only if you are a warlock.
What alternative is there to execution? Rehabilitation, as if criminals and drug addicts never relapse. Which is basically what a warlock is with the added bonus of magical ability. Containment, stick every warlock in DR. How long before it exceeds capacity and/or becomes a source of interest of evil elements?
A person born with magical aptitude is given both a gift and a burden. A gift to use power that few have. A burden to use that gift properly. Would it be it better if novice magic users knew that the WC existed and that there are consequences and punishments for misuse of power? Maybe. But ignorance of the WC does free the novice from the responsibility that hurting others for selfish cause is wrong.That queasy feeling you get before you do bad is not indigestion it is the rumblings of guilt.
Arjan:
A police force is there to find and catch criminals but there is a reason police and judge are seperated in a modern society. There are all kinds of safeguards to be build in the wardens simply lack and that is no accident.
That does not mean the wardens will go on a killing spree just for the fun of it but it means there is a lot of room build in for problems to go undetected and I don’t think that is an accident.
Jim build that room to begin with to be used for plot purposes.
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