The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Does Molly still have her soul?

<< < (11/12) > >>

Arjan:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 27, 2017, 11:38:06 PM ---Sir Stuart makes it actually pretty clear that he is not a soul, when Harry, Mort, and he are all riding out to Karrin's house.  He identifies himself as another spirit, who is not the original Sir Stuart.  This happens when Morty and Sir Stuart are discussing that the reason ghosts are created is usually because they have some unfinished business.  Sir Stuart says that he chooses, then, to take comfort in that he is his own person, who came into being specifically with a purpose - presumably, to protect his family.

As to why Uriel is interested in Sir Stuart - simply because Stuart is a shade, does that mean that he has no use at all to someone like Uriel?  I sincerely doubt it.  But if this is something difficult to accept, then I also will mention that Uriel mentioned that in taking Sir Stuart on, he would be using his power - which is Soulfire, essentially - to rebuild him.  And possibly, like the Six Million Dollar Man, better than he was before.

--- End quote ---
That is what he thinks he is. But they were sure Harry was just a ghost as well, that ghosts often deluded themselves in thinking they were something else. Stuart does not want to delude himself that he is more than he is. What the story shows about people is more important than what they say about themselves.

Arjan:

--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 28, 2017, 12:40:19 AM ---Yes, though Uriel still identifies him as a spirit; just a far greater one than most.  And he also refers to the original Sir Stuart as a separate being.

--- End quote ---
The words are often not that precisely used as we want to like:


--- Quote ---“I got shot. Or drowned. Ain’t exactly rare.” Jack lifted a big, square hand and waggled it back and forth. “It isn’t about the physical. It’s about the spiritual.”
--- End quote ---

But here I think it is used more precise but I interpred it differently. Take this as a clue:


--- Quote ---“I can’t talk to you about that,” he said. “What comes next is about faith, Harry. Not knowledge.”
I folded my arms. “What if I dig the ghost routine?”
“You don’t,” Uriel replied. “But even if you did, I would point out to you that your spiritual essence has been all but disintegrated. You would not last long as a shade, nor would you have the strength to aid and protect your loved ones. Should you lose your sanity, you might even become a danger to them—but if that is your desire, I can facilitate it.”
--- End quote ---

Uriel is talking about rebuilding Stuarts spirirtual essence and Stuart is talking about his spiritual weakness. His spirit is still stronger than what most men have when they die. And it can be rebuild. But what Stuart needs to rebuild it is a soul.


--- Quote ---I went back over to Uriel to find him conversing with Sir Stuart.

"Don't know," Sir Stuart was saying. "I'm not . . . not as right as I used to be, sir."

--- End quote ---
I is the complete sir Stuart including his soul. His weakness is weakness of spirit.

--- Quote ---"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's

--- End quote ---
The difference between spirit and soul again but nowhere is said that the soul is not there as well, it is just not weakened. It is there to rebuild the spirit.

--- Quote ---are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you

--- End quote ---
You is the essential Sir Stuart, the soul to be saved.

--- Quote ---working for me."
--- End quote ---
I do not think Uriel has mere ghosts working for him and I do not think even Uriel can rebuild a spirit if there is no soul to work with. or would be interested in doing so.

DonBugen:

--- Quote ---That is what he thinks he is. But they were sure Harry was just a ghost as well, that ghosts often deluded themselves in thinking they were something else. Stuart does not want to delude himself that he is more than he is. What the story shows about people is more important than what they say about themselves.
--- End quote ---

I will agree that there certainly could be more to Sir Stuart than meets the eye, and that he could be a self-deluded shade in the other way - convinced that he is a shade when he really is a free soul.  I just don't see the evidence, though, myself.



--- Quote ---Uriel is talking about rebuilding Stuarts spirirtual essence and Stuart is talking about his spiritual weakness. His spirit is still stronger than what most men have when they die. And it can be rebuild. But what Stuart needs to rebuild it is a soul.
--- End quote ---

I'm not quite following you there.  What evidence do you have to state that Sir Stuart needs a soul in order to rebuild himself?

Throughout Ghost Story, we see that memories are what makes up a shade.  Sir Stuart spends a memory to fire his pistol, and regains back part of himself when he absorbs that musket shot back.  Dresden was attacked by lemurs who  were gorging on his memories, and after Bob attacked them, Harry re-absorbed his memories and healed himself.  But when Sir Stuart had his memories burned -  fire is, after all, a cleansing force - there was nothing to re-absorb.


--- Quote ---"Come on," I said. "Don't talk like that. We'll get you patched up."

Sir Stuart let out a small laugh. "Nay, wizard. Too much of me has been lost. I've only held together this long so that I could speak to you."

"What happened to our world being mutable in time with our expectations? Isn't that still true?"

"To a degree," Sir Stuart said affably, weakly. "I've been injured before. Small hurts are restored simply enough." He gestured at his broken body. "But this? I'll be like the others when I restore myself."

"The others?"

"The warriors who defended Mortimer's home," he said. "They faded over time. Forgetting, little by little, about their mortal lives."
--- End quote ---

The evidence is that Sir Stuart's memories are what makes him who he is.


--- Quote ---"Aye," Sir Stuart said. "'Tis a muzzle-loading pistol, boy. You have to reload them like a proper weapon." Idly, he reached out a hand toward the last remnants of a deceased wraith, and flickers of light and memory flowed across the intervening space and into his fingertips. When he had it all back, Sir Stuart sighed and shook his head, seeming to recover a measure of strength. "Very well, then, lad. Help me up."
--- End quote ---

As for your arguments...



--- Quote ---I is the complete sir Stuart including his soul. His weakness is weakness of spirit.
--- End quote ---

That's certainly one interpretation...  however, I think that when Sir Stuart says that he's not what he once was, he's still referring to the massive injury that he sustained.  Sir Stuart might have remembered a little bit about himself by fighting again, but he's still far away from being whole.  There's a gigantic difference between the cool, collected, professional Sir Stuart of the beginning of Ghost Story and the confused, somewhat vacant shell left at the end.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---"There's more than enough left to rebuild on," Uriel said. "Trust me. The ruins of a spirit like Sir Stuart's
--- End quote ---
The difference between spirit and soul again but nowhere is said that the soul is not there as well, it is just not weakened. It is there to rebuild the spirit.

--- Quote ---are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up. I'd be very pleased to have you
--- End quote ---
You is the essential Sir Stuart, the soul to be saved.
--- End quote ---
I don't see it.  You're dividing up Uriel's speech and saying that he isn't saying what he's saying.  You're claiming that Uriel is really talking about the soul and using as evidence that he's not saying Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  That's like me stating that Andi is a great transgendered hero of the story, and using as evidence the fact that she never explicitly states that she wasn't born a little boy named Andrew.

You need something more substantial than that.  You can't use as evidence the fact that someone doesn't mention something unless the fact that the information is missing is conspicuous.  If 99.9% of creatures appearing to be ghosts are simply created spirits, it doesn't cast sudden suspicion that Uriel doesn't call out the fact that Sir Stuart doesn't have a soul.  Can you point to somewhere in the books that state that a spirit like Sir Stuarts' must have a soul, or that Uriel would only work with deceased mortals and not with spirits?  I mean, I can point to sections of the Christian Bible which suggest that there are spirits who DO serve God, but that's our world, not Dresden's.

Besides, you sort of sidestepped the fact that when Uriel speaks to Sir Stuart, he refers to the original in the third person.  If Sir Stuart was the soul of the real Sir Stuart, and not an impression created upon death, there would be no reason for Uriel to say "The remains of a spirit like Sir Stuart's.  Sir Stuart would be right there, and Uriel wouldn't be talking of him in the third person.  Instead, the phrasing would naturally be, "The remains of a spirit like yours are more substantial than most men ever manage to dredge up."


--- Quote ---I do not think Uriel has mere ghosts working for him and I do not think even Uriel can rebuild a spirit if there is no soul to work with. or would be interested in doing so.
--- End quote ---
What makes you disregard the one piece of evidence that Uriel does have mere ghosts working for him as untrue?

Furthermore, what makes you believe that a being that can destroy solar systems without a second thought, and works for a being who is beyond time itself, cannot recreate the memories that Sir Stuart lost?  What makes you so certain that a soul is necessary?

Arjan:
Creating is always more difficult than destroying, Ask Bob. Maybe it is more impressive to create one soul than to destroy the universe.

And even if Uriel could create a soul that wouldn't be the same one. Uriel talked about rebuilding not building something new. The soul is the essential Stuartness, without it the spirit is only a collection of memories. Adding new memories without a soul to work, without them being your own memories will just damage you.

Arjan:

--- Quote ---Quote from: Arjan on September 26, 2017, 12:13:40 PM

    A view of the dresden files in book christians.It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.

    Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.

    She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.

    It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.

    Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.

    I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.

Quote

    The same story [Backup] seemed to imply that entities could gain or lose power retroactively, in a wibbley-wobbly timey-wimey sort of way. For example, The Almighty is the Creator of the Universe, but He hasn't always been the Creator of the Universe[4] . Is there anything to this assumption, and if so, might we see it explored in greater detail later?
    Jim: 7) You're assigning limits where there aren't any. In the Dresden Files universe, what changes really isn't the actual beings. It's our understanding of who and what they are


--- End quote ---
That is absolutely beautiful. It means that nothing we say about it has to have any meaning at all when our understanding changes. Because our understanding can change significantly.So if our understanding is that souls reincarnate then that is what happens, at least as we understand it.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page