Author Topic: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?  (Read 3958 times)

Offline peregrine

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #45 on: September 20, 2017, 02:50:06 PM »
Justin definitely knew that they were both potential Starborn, and that's part of why he chose them.  As for exactly why he wanted Starborn, that's all up for speculation.  "Power over Outsiders" could mean many things, including being able to enslave an army of them, which would be great if you want an enforcer of your will.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #46 on: September 20, 2017, 03:52:37 PM »
Justin definitely knew that they were both potential Starborn, and that's part of why he chose them.  As for exactly why he wanted Starborn, that's all up for speculation.  "Power over Outsiders" could mean many things, including being able to enslave an army of them, which would be great if you want an enforcer of your will.

Agreed.

Wouldn't it be funny if Justin adopted both of them, as a breeding pair for more Starborn, and he was enslaving them to his will so that they could take over an army of Outsiders to ...

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Offline apgrey

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #47 on: September 20, 2017, 09:57:53 PM »
Ref:  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48685.msg2258158.html#msg2258158

  The above link refers to a post I made a while ago about Justin, Elaine and Harry.
  I suspect that like Margaret LeFay, there is something important that we don't yet know about Elaine.
  My idea was that Harry called Elaine almost as strong as he is.  Harry is in the top 50 to 100 wizards worldwide for his age group.  So, I don't think it is possible Justin DuMorne could have found two apprentices that powerful by chance.
  We know from Blood Rites that Justin was an associate of Margaret LeFay.  I suspect Margaret and Justin worked together to learn how to create a Starborn.  After Margaret fled from Lord Raith Justin used that knowledge with Elaine's parents to create a second potential Starborn.
  This theory explains why Justin was aware of both Harry and Elaine.  It also suggest Justin may have been the reason both Harry and Elaine became orphans.

APG

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #48 on: September 20, 2017, 10:03:10 PM »
Or you can just go with the theory that Elaine was not only Justin's student but also his orphaned daughter.
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Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #49 on: September 20, 2017, 11:24:41 PM »
My idea was that Harry called Elaine almost as strong as he is.  Harry is in the top 50 to 100 wizards worldwide for his age group.  So, I don't think it is possible Justin DuMorne could have found two apprentices that powerful by chance.

That was more like top fifty to a hundred overall, and that estimate was before a lot of the Council's casualties and Harry's own growth. He's probably at or very near the top if you look only at his age cohort.

Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2017, 11:49:47 AM »
Ref:  http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48685.msg2258158.html#msg2258158

  The above link refers to a post I made a while ago about Justin, Elaine and Harry.
  I suspect that like Margaret LeFay, there is something important that we don't yet know about Elaine.
  My idea was that Harry called Elaine almost as strong as he is.  Harry is in the top 50 to 100 wizards worldwide for his age group.  So, I don't think it is possible Justin DuMorne could have found two apprentices that powerful by chance.
  We know from Blood Rites that Justin was an associate of Margaret LeFay.  I suspect Margaret and Justin worked together to learn how to create a Starborn.  After Margaret fled from Lord Raith Justin used that knowledge with Elaine's parents to create a second potential Starborn.
  This theory explains why Justin was aware of both Harry and Elaine.  It also suggest Justin may have been the reason both Harry and Elaine became orphans.

APG

I  don't know that Justin was an associate of Margaret, other than they were both members of the White Council.  He was a Warden, and she was in rebellion most of the time.  It would seem odd that he'd be able to get her to take up with Lord Raith or that he'd be behind Lord Raith killing her upon the birth of Harry, though he may have been in on the killing of Malcolm..  What is interesting is while Harry embraced the White Council even though he was nearly beheaded by them and persecuted for a while by Morgan, Elaine has avoided becoming a member..  As to comparative strengths, we don't know how good a judge Harry is of that, she might be stronger.  The times we meet her in the books she seems to have more control than he does at any rate.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2017, 01:03:48 PM »
I  don't know that Justin was an associate of Margaret, other than they were both members of the White Council.  He was a Warden, and she was in rebellion most of the time.  It would seem odd that he'd be able to get her to take up with Lord Raith or that he'd be behind Lord Raith killing her upon the birth of Harry, though he may have been in on the killing of Malcolm..  What is interesting is while Harry embraced the White Council even though he was nearly beheaded by them and persecuted for a while by Morgan, Elaine has avoided becoming a member..  As to comparative strengths, we don't know how good a judge Harry is of that, she might be stronger.  The times we meet her in the books she seems to have more control than he does at any rate.
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2017, 03:34:23 PM »
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.

I thought it was when he mentioned the dinner Margaret wanted him to go to with the Dutchess and Lord Raith
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Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2017, 04:12:56 PM »
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.

I just quoted the pertinent line in another thread, here it is:

Quote from:  Blood Rights Ch 35
I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates, including Justin DuMorne. After that, no where was safe for her. She ran, from her former allies and from the wardens for perhaps two years... She met your father. A man, a mortal without powers, without influence, without resources, but a man with a good soul like few I have ever seen. I believe she fell in love with him.

The dinner did not include Justin, you're correct Rasins. Just Ariana and Lord Raith. But the connection between Margaret and just was established way back in book 6. I'm also in the school of thought that Justin "finding" Elaine is a bit too convenient to believe. He likely had a hand in her conception, one way or another.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 04:14:37 PM by Froklsnt »

Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2017, 04:31:52 PM »
I just quoted the pertinent line in another thread, here it is:

The dinner did not include Justin, you're correct Rasins. Just Ariana and Lord Raith. But the connection between Margaret and just was established way back in book 6. I'm also in the school of thought that Justin "finding" Elaine is a bit too convenient to believe. He likely had a hand in her conception, one way or another.

I don't know if he had a hand in her conception, though I wouldn't discount the possibility.  I'd sooner believe he, as a Warden, had created a network (ala Paranet) that would let him know about potential Wizards.

But really, who knows.  LOL
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Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2017, 04:55:21 PM »
"Potential Wizards" seems to be a much broader category than "Potential Starborns." While we still don't know everything involved, Lash's line from White Night seems to suggest there is more to it than just Wizard parentage and the right birthday:

Quote from: White Night, page 406
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth -- because of why you were born, Harry.  Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
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"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."

It's my read that it would only be achieved deliberately, that accidentally / coincidentally creating a starborn is highly unlikely. Hence, Justin probably had something to do with it. He was almost certainly aware of Harry being created towards that purpose, perhaps even involved in the original plan to do it.

Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2017, 05:41:08 PM »
"Potential Wizards" seems to be a much broader category than "Potential Starborns." While we still don't know everything involved, Lash's line from White Night seems to suggest there is more to it than just Wizard parentage and the right birthday:

It's my read that it would only be achieved deliberately, that accidentally / coincidentally creating a starborn is highly unlikely. Hence, Justin probably had something to do with it. He was almost certainly aware of Harry being created towards that purpose, perhaps even involved in the original plan to do it.

Could be, but then why did he think he could control a star born?
Quote
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.

I seem to remember that as well, but what doesn't make sense there is until Harry killed him nothing was known about Justin's evil intents... He was merely a retired Warden, he had been on the eventual killing of Kemmler, where on the sly he managed to steal the skull which contained the spirit that eventually became Bob.. So did Eb have additional information about Justin after the fact? 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 05:45:09 PM by Mira »

Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2017, 06:35:02 PM »
"Potential Wizards" seems to be a much broader category than "Potential Starborns." While we still don't know everything involved, Lash's line from White Night seems to suggest there is more to it than just Wizard parentage and the right birthday:

It's my read that it would only be achieved deliberately, that accidentally / coincidentally creating a starborn is highly unlikely. Hence, Justin probably had something to do with it. He was almost certainly aware of Harry being created towards that purpose, perhaps even involved in the original plan to do it.

Don't forget that Wizards like to hold onto information more tightly than Scrooge likes to hoard money.

That being said, I could totally see Margaret only telling Justin part of it.  Or enough to be able to identify a potential, but not an actual Starborn.
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Offline Froklsnt

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2017, 07:07:24 PM »
Could be, but then why did he think he could control a star born?

Justin thought he could control a couple of kids, and bend them to his designs over time, leaving them open to enthrallment. And the more I think about it, the more the "enforcers" explanation smells fishy. More likely, they were being developed for their potential regarding the Outsiders, since we know Justin had those connections.

What if the enthrallment of Elaine and He Who Walks Behind being sent out have more to do with each other than has been previously reported? We know that HWWB is called via a ritual, a ritual for which timing is crucial. Perhaps involving star borns in that ritual yields another result that Justin was seeking. And perhaps, since his plan to perform a ritual with his apprentices fell through, he had no choice but to send HWWB after Harry, because the clock had already been set in motion.

Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2017, 07:09:26 PM »
Justin thought he could control a couple of kids, and bend them to his designs over time, leaving them open to enthrallment. And the more I think about it, the more the "enforcers" explanation smells fishy. More likely, they were being developed for their potential regarding the Outsiders, since we know Justin had those connections.

What if the enthrallment of Elaine and He Who Walks Behind being sent out have more to do with each other than has been previously reported? We know that HWWB is called via a ritual, a ritual for which timing is crucial. Perhaps involving star borns in that ritual yields another result that Justin was seeking. And perhaps, since his plan to perform a ritual with his apprentices fell through, he had no choice but to send HWWB after Harry, because the clock had already been set in motion.

So, in this case, HWWB WAS the entropy curse?
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