The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
Kimmy T:
DonBugen. You are totally correct in surmising that Justin Dumorne taught Harry and Elaine Necromancy. It has long been my personal theory that the man Harry and Elaine thought of as Justin Dumorne was in fact ... drumroll ... the dread necromancer Kemmler! As evidence I present the following facts.
1. The Lineage of Bob's Skull: In Dead Beat Bob specifically states that Harry acquired his skull from the flaming wreckage of Justin Dumorne's house and that Justin Dumorne, in his Warden days, acquired the skull from the flaming wreckage of Kemmler's last stand. This establishes that Justin was present at Kemmler's last stand and might have actually fought the necromancer.
2. The Corpsetaker: In Dead Beat it was established that the body-switching Corpsetaker is one of Kemmler's discicples. It is then probable that, as her teacher, Kemmler was the one who taught Corpsetaker how to switch bodes. It then follows that Kemmler himself was also probably able to switch bodies like Corpsetaker. My theory is that Kemmler switched bodies with Justin Dumorne during his "final" battle and then assumed the identity of the young Warden. This would explain Dumorne's switch from upstanding Warden to Evil Warlock.
You are totally right in pointing out that Harry is too informed about Necromancy in Dead Beat and that the spell he used to reanimate Sue was way, way too advanced for a wizard who should have only known the bare basic bones of the theory of Necromancy. But, if you assume that Harry's teacher Justin Dumorne was in fact Kemmler and probably taught him Necromancy, then things become a lot more clear.
DonBugen:
To those of you who believe that Harry's knowledge has more to do with being taught by Justin or Ebenezer on how to fight Necromancers... I'm starting to doubt it. I've just re-read chapter six of Dead Beat, and the manner in which Dresden recounts this information is extremely telling. When Dresden talks about what a necromancer does; he doesn't simply explain it from an outsider's perspective; he goes in depth as to why the necromantic spells work.
For example...
--- Quote ---"Kill their drum."
"Uh, what?"
I shook my head. "Sorry. A zombie... well, it isn't really a person with thoughts and feelings and such, but the corpse is used to being a person. To eating, breathing - and to a beating heart. That's how the Necromancer controls them. He plays a beat or some kind of rhythmic music, and uses magic to substitute his beat for the zombie's heartbeat. He links himself to the beat, the beat to the zombie's heart, and when the necromancer gives a command, as far as the zombie is concerned it's coming from inside him and he wants to do it. That's how they can control them so completely.
--- End quote ---
See, I could see a Warden or Eb teaching about the drum, teaching about how the Necromancer controls the creature through the drum. But I cannot see how the teacher could teach why the drum is important. To be able to explain what the zombie wants, what it remembers... that sounds more like the teachings that a master of the True Magic would give to his pupil. Even unbeknownst to him.
Dresden remarks as narrator at the end of Turn Coat that all of the White Council is at a beginner's level of mind magic, due to it being considered a black magic and against the Laws. If this is the case, why would a council member know this amount about necromancy in order to give to the student? And I'm quite certain that Bob, having hidden away all of the knowledge he had gained when working with Kemmler, would not have known in the same sort of intimate setting about why necromancy worked the way it does.
Kimmy T: I'm not quite ready to make the jump to Justin being a bodyswitched Kemmler. It's clearly possible, but not a theory I've spent much time thinking of. And if so, that would imply that either Justin was still alive somewhere or that he had also bodyswitched with Elaine before Justin's death.
Griffyn612:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on September 15, 2017, 11:03:21 PM ---That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.
--- End quote ---
What knowledge?
--- Quote ---“Necromancy is the practice of using magic to muck around with dead things. Necromancers can animate and control corpses, manipulate ghosts, access the knowledge stored in dead brains—"
"They can also do a lot of really freaky things involving the soul. Even in the weird circles, it isn’t the kind of thing you talk about casually. But I’ve heard stories that they can inhabit corpses with their consciousness, possess others. I’ve even heard that they can bring people back from the dead.”
“You’re assuming that what the necromancer brings them back to is better than death. From what I’ve heard, they don’t generally do it for humanitarian reasons. But that might be a load of crap. Like I said, no one talks about it.”
“So. Those were actual zombies?”“Never seen one before,” I said. “But that seems like a pretty good guess.”
“Don’t I remember something about sewing a zombie’s lips shut with thread to kill them? Does that work?” “No clue,” I said. “But you saw those things. If you want to get close enough to find out, be my guest, but I’ll be observing it through a freaking telescope.”
“But how do we stop them?” I sighed. “They’re tough, but they’re still flesh and bone. Massive trauma will do it sooner or later.”
“Zombies follow orders, but they don’t have much more intellect than your average animal. You have to outthink them—or the necromancer who is giving them orders. You could also cut off the necromancer’s control of them. Kill their drum... A zombie…well, it isn’t really a person with thoughts and feelings and such, but the corpse is used to being a person. To eating, breathing—and to a beating heart. That’s how the necromancer controls them. He plays a beat or some kind of rhythmic music, and uses magic to substitute his beat for the zombie’s heartbeat. He links himself to the beat, the beat to the zombie’s heart, and when the necromancer gives a command, as far as the zombie is concerned it’s coming from inside him and he wants to do it. That’s how they can control them so completely.”
--- End quote ---
A lot of the info he provides sounds like rumor or common instructional info Eb would have told him.
--- Quote from: DonBugen on September 16, 2017, 02:37:07 AM ---When Dresden talks about what a necromancer does; he doesn't simply explain it from an outsider's perspective; he goes in depth as to why the necromantic spells work.
--- End quote ---
The problem with that theory is the earlier quote, where he says he's never seen a zombie before. There's no reason to lie about that to Butters.
groinkick:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on September 15, 2017, 11:03:21 PM ---That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.
--- End quote ---
Forgot when in the book he did it, but Harry did memorize the book of Kemmler. He says so to Mavra at the end.
Snark Knight:
--- Quote from: Griffyn612 on September 16, 2017, 02:53:14 AM ---The problem with that theory is the earlier quote, where he says he's never seen a zombie before. There's no reason to lie about that to Butters.
--- End quote ---
Assuming most of those explanations were by way of Justin, there's a big difference between him explaining the basics of dark techniques and doing an actual demo. Actually raising a zombie would have tipped Harry and Elaine that he was evil, and risked them running away before he could spring the enthrallment plan (assuming Elaine wasn't in on that voluntarily).
I'm still on the fence about the central question, but I wouldn't rule out Justin as the source of it for that reason.
--- Quote from: Kimmy T on September 15, 2017, 11:44:28 PM ---My theory is that Kemmler switched bodies with Justin Dumorne during his "final" battle and then assumed the identity of the young Warden.
--- End quote ---
I'm not ruling out that possibility either. But it begs one big question - if Kemmler escaped death by body-swapping into Justin, that means Kemmler was running around with the Council thinking him dead for twenty-plus years, during which he could have completed the Darkhallow that they stopped him from doing in 1961. So ... why did he choose not to?
--- Quote from: groinkick on September 16, 2017, 03:07:51 AM ---Forgot when in the book he did it, but Harry did memorize the book of Kemmler. He says so to Mavra at the end.
--- End quote ---
Way, way later than he explained the basics to Butters. He and Lash only scanned the book right near the end, shortly before he raised Sue.
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