The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Smaug with OCD:
--- Quote from: Quantus on August 15, 2017, 12:15:50 PM ---As a Nemesis-controlled agent overall Id say. Nemesis invested a metric f*ckton of energy and resources on that scheme, fought the Hunt and even fielded an actual Walker for it. All it would have take for Nemesis to Win the Day was for Murphy to Not Pull the Trigger at the end. Or even to simply Miss, as humans do. I have to think Nemesis would have played that card if it could have.
--- End quote ---
Stop thinking so small. If Nemesis had been in control of Murphy, she wouldn't have simply missed or not pulled the trigger. She would have aimed at Mab herself... probably. New's genre savvy-ness has been rather lacking once you know what to look for.
Also, as for Murphy's development: The idea of her taking up one of the coins has been mentioned once or twice(or more) throughout this thread. I'm actually kind of hoping this happens. Before you come after me with the pitchforks and torches, hear me out... please? We have had a lot of character arcs throughout the series that can best be described as heart-wrenching. Most of them, however, have had good endings. Morgan was allowed to die doing what he believed in, even after a life of bitterness. Susan's story was horrifying, but she was allowed to die protecting her child and fulfilling the goals of the Order of Saint Giles. Michael got his happy ending, even if it was a bit traumatic, and his story probably isn't over yet.
But, so far, the only utterly, truly tragic story has been Lilly's. She never wanted power or riches or war. She wanted a husband and a family. She didn't get it, not even close. So, the question I'm asking: Could we be in for another tragedy with Murphy? Might she - as Harry has done so many times - pick up some new and horrible power out of a desire to protect the people she sees as her responsibility. Yes, it isn't her job to safeguard them anymore. But, has she made peace with that? I doubt it. She was also told in Small Favor by Dresden that he had refused a coin. Might she think she could do the same, or could Nicodemus spin her a tale of "We are fighting to save the world?" As much as I love Murph as a character, I don't want her to become the Dresden team's Lois Lane, and I feel a tragic ending - however undeserved, but entirely realistic if written properly - would be better than being the weakest link.
DonBugen:
Cold Days is one of my favorite books, next to Skin Game, Proven Guilty, and Turn Coat. I know the novel pretty well.
My concern isn’t Karrin’s entrance, but her exit. Karrin tells Dresden that he’s a factor against having a relationship. She says verbatim that he scares the holy loving f*** out of her, and that he’s already changed into something different due to the Winter Mantle. She’s scared that part of her is down with the changes and that if he changes more, and that she’s scared of becoming a monster, too, due to his influence. Granted, this conversation is much warmer and closer than I’m making it sound, but it’s all honest things that weigh on her heart.
--- Quote ---“You’re saying that the problem is you think I could go bad,” I said.
“I know you could,” she said. “Anyone can.”
--- End quote ---
Murph also reiterates her fear of dying long before Dresden, that the two of them have such different lifespans, and that Molly is presumably a better fit for him. The age difference has always been a big issue, and all she sees in Dresden is another disastrous relationship.
This is the jump-off point from the end of Cold Days. And in the beginning of Skin Game, she’s agreeing to follow him into the underworld to perform an act of burglary alongside Nicodemus Archleone,despite the fact that Dresden makes it clear that he's keeping secrets from her and needs her to trust him completely.
I just don’t see how she really could go from this fear and concern to Skin Game, where she just blindly trusts Harry and works alongside terrorists and mass-murderers. Yes, her talk with Butters does kind of show that she’s just decided to blindly trust that her friends aren’t turning into monsters. But it also shows that it’s been a hellish year, and Butters’ fears aren’t unfounded. In fact, they’re the logical conclusion from the evidence since Cold Days. I just don’t buy that Karrin would have immediately changed her tune not only on her fears of Dresden losing control, but also of her own insecurities in a relationship, all during a mission in which she does nothing to contribute to Dresden’s success and everything to stop it.
Mr. Death, I know, this is crazy, paranoid, and really doesn’t make much sense compared to your reasoned arguments. I know that everything you’re saying is far more likely and is much more in-line with Karrin’s character. But I just can’t shake this feeling. Call me a cynic, call me mad, but the change seems a little too much like Luccio, who would never have pursued a relationship with Harry if she wasn’t being influenced by something else. Maybe all of this change is just the fear of losing Dresden again. Maybe.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on August 15, 2017, 12:00:33 AM ---Yeah, that's always been my biggest argument against Murphy being a traitor. As Harry's most trusted companion, she has had soooooooo many opportunities to completely screw over the side of reality. But every action she's taken has been to help Harry defend reality. In Cold Days alone, there are six or seven points where, through simple inaction, Murphy could've handed the game to the Outsiders and not even blown her cover.
That she didn't pretty much clears her entirely.
--- End quote ---
That depends, though.
I agree that it's deeply improbable, that Murphy is a traitor.
It's also improbable, but not as improbable, that the blonde woman Harry is associating with is not really the real Karrin Murphy, that at some point along the way she was possessed/replaced.
Improbable, but not totally impossible. Yeah, there have been lots of chances to betray Harry that were passed up, but that isn't proof, because whether those were good chances from the enemy POV would depend on the 'why', which we don't know. Also, if Karrin has been replaced, a lot would depend on exactly when she was replaced, and by what. Same deal if possessed.
Now, as for the unlikely factor, how long has it been since Karrin was around Mouse? Most forms of replacement/possession/mind warping would set Mouse off (though we can't say with Nemfection). Likewise, she's been inside the Carpenter property, most supernatural nasties can't dare dream of trying that.
About the only halfway likely way Karrin could be a supernatural nasty would be if whatever is there is only sometimes there, if you see what I mean. Something that comes and goes.
LordDresden2:
--- Quote from: deflated on August 15, 2017, 02:04:00 AM ---I think Murphy's role moving forward is to be Harry's only close associate without some fairly serious mystical power or protections.
She's shaping to be one of the few vulnerabilities he has, something that can drive him to act irrationally or a hook for the bad guys to pull him along. Molly, Eb, Thomas, Butters, Ivy, the Alphas can look after themselves, Michael and Maggie have serious 24/7 bodyguards. I can't see her agreeing to be wrapped in cotton wool and kept safe. Karrin has some serious friends and isn't defenseless but looks like Harry's closest friend and most likely target all wrapped up together.
--- End quote ---
Which is precisely why so many people have a hard time seeing Karrin staying in a major story role without something giving way. Either JB will have to change Karrin, or change the world she lives in, or her role in the story...or put her on a bus/kill her.
As for Karrin's pride...that's part of the issue too. I'm not sure it would be in character for Karrin to let herself be 'protected' all the time...and yet refusing to let herself be protected could easily make her a Liability. Karrin is not Lois Lane, and could never be content to be Lois Lane...but her current situation looks dangerously close to forcing her in that direction unless something changes.
If something were going to throw Karrin completely off the rails, though, I think it might be something out of left field, not something directly to do with Harry. There's a whole side of Karrin's life and emotions we rarely see: the relationship with her family, her brother-in-/ex, her little sister/rival/replacement, the Chicago PD.
What does Karrin's family think of her choices? What do they know about them? Do her brothers see her as a failure? The girl who couldn't cut it in the boys' game? A victim? A heroine? Does her family know much about her relationship with Marcone? Are they aware that they are more-or-less under Marcone's protection? If so, what do they as a cop family think of that?
Heck, Karrin's career fail could easily burn her brothers, too, whether they know the full truth or not.
Have we heard if Rich and Lisa have a kid yet? If so, what does Karrin think of that? Etc.
I could easily imagine problems from that direction finally driving Karrin over the edge, and it coming as a shock to Harry and Co. because they aren't part of that side of her life. Remember, all we know of Karrin is what we see through the eyes of Harry Dresden. Such first-person perceptions are always incomplete.
Mira:
--- Quote from: LordDresden2 on August 16, 2017, 05:32:21 AM ---Which is precisely why so many people have a hard time seeing Karrin staying in a major story role without something giving way. Either JB will have to change Karrin, or change the world she lives in, or her role in the story...or put her on a bus/kill her.
As for Karrin's pride...that's part of the issue too. I'm not sure it would be in character for Karrin to let herself be 'protected' all the time...and yet refusing to let herself be protected could easily make her a Liability. Karrin is not Lois Lane, and could never be content to be Lois Lane...but her current situation looks dangerously close to forcing her in that direction unless something changes.
If something were going to throw Karrin completely off the rails, though, I think it might be something out of left field, not something directly to do with Harry. There's a whole side of Karrin's life and emotions we rarely see: the relationship with her family, her brother-in-/ex, her little sister/rival/replacement, the Chicago PD.
What does Karrin's family think of her choices? What do they know about them? Do her brothers see her as a failure? The girl who couldn't cut it in the boys' game? A victim? A heroine? Does her family know much about her relationship with Marcone? Are they aware that they are more-or-less under Marcone's protection? If so, what do they as a cop family think of that?
Heck, Karrin's career fail could easily burn her brothers, too, whether they know the full truth or not.
Have we heard if Rich and Lisa have a kid yet? If so, what does Karrin think of that? Etc.
I could easily imagine problems from that direction finally driving Karrin over the edge, and it coming as a shock to Harry and Co. because they aren't part of that side of her life. Remember, all we know of Karrin is what we see through the eyes of Harry Dresden. Such first-person perceptions are always incomplete.
--- End quote ---
True...
--- Quote ---This is the jump-off point from the end of Cold Days. And in the beginning of Skin Game, she’s agreeing to follow him into the underworld to perform an act of burglary alongside Nicodemus Archleone,despite the fact that Dresden makes it clear that he's keeping secrets from her and needs her to trust him completely.
I just don’t see how she really could go from this fear and concern to Skin Game, where she just blindly trusts Harry and works alongside terrorists and mass-murderers. Yes, her talk with Butters does kind of show that she’s just decided to blindly trust that her friends aren’t turning into monsters. But it also shows that it’s been a hellish year, and Butters’ fears aren’t unfounded. In fact, they’re the logical conclusion from the evidence since Cold Days. I just don’t buy that Karrin would have immediately changed her tune not only on her fears of Dresden losing control, but also of her own insecurities in a relationship, all during a mission in which she does nothing to contribute to Dresden’s success and everything to stop it.
--- End quote ---
Yes, including what she said to Harry about the Holy Sword which wasn't exactly true, she hadn't been appointed their custodian.. To how she felt about being a Holy Knight and why she couldn't be one.. Then not telling him she decided to take the Sword of Faith with her as a concealed weapon.. Says that she doesn't completely trust Harry.. She she says he scares the hell out of her, she is telling the truth.. That she fears he may become a monster, she is telling the truth.. I think she thinks she trusts Harry completely, she told Butters that, but the truth is, she doesn't.. Again I think it goes back to not just her insecurities but the fact that Harry is NOT the same man he was before Changes.. That man she knew well, she learned to trust him and would follow him anywhere. But this Harry? No, she doesn't trust him, not completely, her actions in Skin Game says that she doesn't..
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