The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
Mira:
--- Quote ---1. There is a game going on between Nicodemus and Harry in regards to the truce between them. If Nicodemus can get Harry to break the truce first, Nick gets to kill Harry without consequence and gets a replacement Winter Knight to get through the Gate of Ice. If Harry can get Nicodemus to break the truce first, Mab no longer owes Nicodemus a Winter Knight for this task and Harry is free. If neither can get the other to break the truce, then presumably they go to the end and duke it out in Chicago.
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I don't think it is that cut and dry on the replacement Winter Knight thing... For example do you think Slade would have performed as well as Harry did on the mission? Not sure what you mean by Harry being free, even if Mab didn't owe Nic a Winter Knight for this task, that doesn't free Harry as her Knight in my opinion.
--- Quote ---2. Nicodemus knows that Harry doesn’t intend to help Nick get his goal, and Harry knows that Nicodemus will double-cross them. They both know that the other is only going through the motions.
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Very true, which by the way, Mab expects in fact states that she'd relish such a game..
--- Quote ---3. Considering that everyone is trying to get the other to betray the other, the best way to get one player to betray the other is to either block them into a logical corner or to provoke them into an unthinking emotional response.
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Which is exactly what Nic did with Murphy when he made it look like Harry was about to be killed... Taking out two birds with one stone, Murphy and more importantly, a Holy Sword.
--- Quote ---7. Nicodemus’ expressed goal is that Butters dies. His reasoning for it, which ties it to Harry’s obligation to give aid to Nick in his operation, is that Butters poses a security risk. These things by themselves do not yet obligate Harry to do the deed himself, but it does obligate Harry to not prevent it from happening and to provide what aid Nicodemus may require. This is the first trap.
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Indeed, which Butters unwittingly sprung.. Taking it a step further Nic most likely knew exactly what Butters was going to do via his shadow Andriel, so it became the perfect set up.
--- Quote ---8. At this point, Harry has determined that he and Butters have no choice but to break the contract, fight, and likely die. However, before they can actually move on this action, Karrin steps in with her ‘rocket launcher’ and threatens them, attempting to make Nicodemus reconsider his logical trap. She positions herself in close proximity to Nicodemus, draws the Sword, and attacks.
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I see that a little different, Nic doesn't care if Butters dies or not, but he knows Harry does.. Harry's reaction and action to the order were very predictable.. Harry is that kind of guy... Then all was needed was to put his head between Geno's mits with death seemingly certain.. Also predictable, Murphy would rush forth like an avenging angel with the Holy Sword Nic already knew she had hidden.. The second part of the trap has been sprung.. All that is left to do now on Nic's part, is to "lose" to Murphy, surrender, knowing that it isn't in her to accept and let him go to seek redemption.. She goes for execution instead and voila, a broken Holy Sword. Set, game, match...
--- Quote ---b. Nicodemus pays a price for using this strategy: he states that he relinquishes his claim on Butters’ blood. This essentially frees Dresden (albeit temporarily) of the responsibility of having to kill Butters. This strategy would last about as long as Nicodemus has to keep up the charade of submitting to the Knight. But it does mean that Nicodemus doubly cannot kill Dresden at this point and use it as an argument to Mab. Not only is Butters still in Dresden’s area of influence, but Nick has essentially just taken back his claim on his life.
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Which is all B.S. because the whole thing was a ploy....
--- Quote ---
It doesn’t matter what lame excuse Nicodemus gives at this point. The point of the matter is that Harry states that the act of commanding the Genoskwa to kill him at this point, after Harry blasted Butters over the fence, would be breaking his contract with Mab. And Nicodemus doesn’t deny this. He weasels out instead by claiming he wasn’t breaking the contract because he didn’t actually put Dresden in danger.
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Harry then says that Mab would see both actions as reasonable tit for tat, with no real harm done to the original deal...
--- Quote ---What about Karrin being Dresden’s +1 and Harry being responsible for her actions? There are a number of instances in which Team Dresden and Team Nick clash and it isn’t considered a breach of contract. The Genoskwa smashes him up a bit in the warehouse and incapacitates him. Dresden smacks around Binder’s chaps in the chase. Heck, Michael attacks the Genoskwa first in the vault, but Harry’s still concerned about letting Nicodemus attack him first.
--- End quote ---
That is negated by Nic saying he cannot be responsible for Murphy's safety, so she goes with Harry at her own risk, of her own free will, she was never ordered to go along..
peregrine:
Simple question. When Harry gives chase to Butters, is his goal to keep Butters from getting killed, or is his goal to silence Butters for the good of the mission? Not, "Can he do both" or "Is there a way to keep Butters alive without breaking Mab's word" but what is his overriding goal?
DonBugen:
--- Quote from: Mira on August 31, 2017, 09:47:06 PM ---Does that mean that you agree that my theory is lunacy? ::) I'd like to point out that I have a better track record than most, I called it that Butters would become a Holy Knight and got shot down for it pretty strongly at the time, but I was right..
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No, not at all - I don't think that your theory was lunacy. I didn't quite agree with it, but I can see where you were going with it. HuangJimmy was calling my response to him lunacy and acting as if I was ignoring this counter that he posed to you.
I didn't realize that you predicted Butters at the time! I first discovered the Dresden Files five years ago, shortly after Cold Days came out, and read the full series for the first time in a few glorious months. I remember when reading Dead Beat wondering why on earth Dresden was bemoaning about not getting a Knight to come and save him, when he did get a pretty miraculous rescue by Mouse and Butters. At the time, I had thought it would be ironic if Butters one day would become a knight, though as I continued on with the series I had concluded that it was Mouse, not Butters, that Jim was setting up to be the superhero. Imagine my surprise when the next book came out and Butters was being set up to be a knight all along.
--- Quote from: peregrine ---Simple question. When Harry gives chase to Butters, is his goal to keep Butters from getting killed, or is his goal to silence Butters for the good of the mission? Not, "Can he do both" or "Is there a way to keep Butters alive without breaking Mab's word" but what is his overriding goal?
--- End quote ---
Harry's goal is to save Butters' life while going through the motions of stopping him. Just as Mab's goal is to screw Nicodemus seven times over while going through the motions of lending her knight to aid his project. Like a kid with a cookie jar, they're only in trouble if they get caught.
peregrine:
So, what he's looking to do is break Mab's word without getting caught.
Which means that when Nic explicitly compares his move to kill Harry to Harry's betrayal of Mab's word, he is admitting that he was going to actually do it, but, like Harry's attempt, it can be explained away.
Arjan:
--- Quote from: jonas on August 31, 2017, 09:23:02 PM ---Mab stated her intention but that was not her intention, that would be a lie. Consider that his intentions were fluid and that any way it tended to go was ok with him, it's not lying. Kringle doesn't say he's going to straight up lie his ass off, and neither does he. besides this one game here, which by the letter of it was not lying, it was being deceptive, it was misdirection, it was letting the dice role, but he didn't lie directly to anyone about anything. Show me where he lied. Show me where Mab lied considering it was never her intention to help him achieve his goal? subtle distinctions.
A lie would be if he didn't want the cup, he does want the cup, that that wasn't what he wanted most doesn't suddenly make that a lie.
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It is about Nicodemus lying, not Mab lying. Mab won't. Nicodemus is not bound to tell the truth the way Mab is so it makes no sense to expect him to follow rules the way Mab does.
The fae are unique in that respect and nobody in the books applies those rules to other creatures like vampires or denarian hosts. Nobody expects Nicodemus to tell the truth either.
If he says Tessa is after the grail, that that is her beef, that is an obvious lie. We know what her beef was, what she was after. She was not interested in that cup at all, she tried to prevent the crew from Even starting the whole thing.
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