The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers

Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry

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DonBugen:
Jonas: I hear you, I do. But my argument is not that Arthur Langtry is not a Denarian and therefore Michael is helpless; rather, that he is a mortal who possesses free will and choice. Think of the angel of death in Ghost Story who stood beside Forthill as he lay dying: what happened to Forthill was a result of the choices of many mortals. Who was he to step in?

Michael works for the same guy. Remember in Skin Game, he cannot follow into the Gate of Fire because Hannah chose to go there. Well, Molly's made her choice, and Dresden made his, and the Council would have made theirs. What could Michael do? Being "supernatural" in this sense means diddly; almost every mortal has SOME magical ability. Arthur being Shaq amongst a basketball court full of toddlers means nothing. He's mortal.

The only mortals that the Knights have the authority to kill are the Denarians, and only -after- they refuse to give up the coin. And -that- is because the Knights have a special mission in regards to the coins: to protect the bearers from the Fallen, and to protect others from the bearers.  There is no similar decree to protect convicted criminals of any mortal governing body from receiving their sentance.

Edit: Did you read "The Warrior" in Side Jobs?  Uriel pretty much tells Dresden that he was along in order to protect Michael from doing the exact thing you describe.

jonas:

--- Quote ---Also, Langtry wouldn’t “order Molly's execution anyway” or “lash out directly to achieve his will.”
--- End quote ---
Now that's just a refusal to play the game ;(

--- Quote ---Additionally, not even a KOTC can judge another—Murphy tried with Nicodemus and look at what happened,
--- End quote ---
THIS!^^ lets examine this actually. Because I don't think most people have gone in depth enough about why that happened getting lost in the Murph bashing... But look at Nic's actions and look at Murphy's. Why did Murphy fail? Because Nic had given himself up? No, and i'll get to why. Because she struck with impure intentions? Precisely. She wasn't trying to save anyone deep down, or protect. She hated Nic in that moment and wanted to strike him down not only for the pain he had caused but because of her own personal torment.

The proof in that? Nic never really gave up! He set down his main protections, he made himself look vulnerable, all in an attempt to smash the sword. But he never took his finger of the trigger of the weapon he was using, The Genoska. As per SK and Harry wielding Toot Toot, whenever one person dictate commands to another, specifically seen as a supernatural entity but probably applies to all vassels(which I'd also point out is why Nic's goons can die by the sword), means that the Genoska was his weapon that he was actively using from Murph's and Harry's perspectives to kill Harry. Doesn't this seem like a big glaringly obvious plot hole otherwise?There would have been nothing wrong with continuing against Nic, except the intention of the person wielding the sword.

--- Quote --- Did you read "The Warrior" in Side Jobs?  Uriel pretty much tells Dresden that he was along in order to protect Michael from doing the exact thing you describe.
--- End quote ---
Also a direct result of how Michael acted/reacted emotionally and how it colored his intent. He admitted to Harry iirc that he just plain wanted to kill that guy at the time.
I'll take apart a few other points I see later. That should be more than enough to chew on for now ;)

Oh,
--- Quote ---"I am truly sorry for you brother-but this time, you will answer for what you have done."
--- End quote ---
And that's very precisely Michael condemning Nic in the same way, after giving him a choice, which is why in this and the discussion before it I've relegated that the WC members her have already made said choice. Cause that seems to be your point there,  and Lidy's point above(instead of just accepting a situation so we can get to the heart of the issue presented) but if you examine what's being said it's a nonissue here. Choices were made, that's why it's a 'what if'.

--- Quote ---he is a mortal who possesses free will and choice.
--- End quote ---
The Warlock running Charities covenant was free willed and choose to sacrifice lives to a dragon, whom was Michael to step in and stop the process? ??? He even killed a dragon who was probably just doing dragon things it considered normal when humans offer virgins and the like. Who knows what happened to the Warlock until we get in a short story? :)
and on the same vein, who wasn't Murphy to step in and stop Nic from sacrificing Harry to the Genoskwa? Mmm. ???

jonas:
Well, I guess maybe your right. And I'll change my vote, slightly(or at least think of it differently, cause that's still not what's in the battle set up fyi...) In this instance if Michael is indeed too close to it to act rationally from love or somehow righteous love of life and indignation at it's flagrant taking doesn't translate over... Harry would react strongly to the sword here. In this his belief is pure and his intention was very true. He was gonna do anything to stop them in those moments because he truly believes himself that it was possible for her to choose. So overall I've given evidence the Sword would react in such a situation dependent upon the intentions of the bearer. Which while I disagree Michael wouldn't have the right. Harry would certainly have the purity of intent...

DonBugen:
Okay, I do hear your points. I especially do agree with you about Nic not giving up in skin game, so it is important to note that Nic admitted that he didn't know whether or not Murphy would undo the sword by acting in that moment if she had not made it a moment of personal vengeance.

I don't think that Gregor and the dragon is good evidence that Michael can attack Mortals if the cause seems right. For one, when charity talks about her history, she only speaks about Gregor being the villain. It's Gregor, Gregor, Gregor, and then when Michael comes in, he slays the Dragon. Think: if a stranger immediately jumps into your summoning ritual and starts battling your summon dragon to the death, a creature that can eat you without a second thought, are you suddenly going to go and defend the dragon? Or are you going to slink away? I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think that we can't use this as evidence to judge, especially when the rest of the Dresden Files do support that Michael can't attack Mortals with the white God's support.

The one thing, that I do think would never happen, is Harry picking up the sword of Love at this point. Remember, PG Harry is still holding a coin, and it's pretty much terrified that God would look at him at all. He repeatedly says that he is not a knight and will never be a knight, and while I think that this is to some extent, denial, we've never seen him hold a sword to use it other than in GP, when he nearly destroyed it.

To answer this epic battle question without considering the circumstances doesn't really make sense when Michael's entire superpower completely depend on the circumstances. But I'll try to answer it as honestly as I can.  If any Supernatural creature, be at eight Goblin or Nicodemus or the entire red Court, we're to be called to a knight to defeat it, they would have a better-than-average odd of defeating them, simply from the swords power. However, if they did not have the white gods support, they would most likely die.

I apologize for the weirdness of this post, I'm trying to dictate this into my cell phone while giving a dog a bath.

groinkick:
If Michael is there on official business, he wins hands down.  The Swords appear to neutralize disadvantages forcing an equal fight.  I doubt Langtry would fair well against Michael on equal terms.

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