Denarians and White Council

[Snark Knight]

Well, I'm thinking a couple of things.  First is that the Denarians are/were signatories to the Unseelie Accords and as a group could not be lightly touched by the Wouncil.

While they were members of the accords, it would have been a literal act of war to go after them for violating the Laws. I'd chalk it up to mostly not being worth pissing Mab off.

Besides which, the fallen is going to take control if the host starts acting erratically on too large a scale. Allowing a cooperating host like Tessa or Rosanna a few indulgences is one thing, but the Fallen have a purpose and they expect their hosts to mostly stick to acting on it.

[LordDresden2]

While they were members of the accords, it would have been a literal act of war to go after them for violating the Laws. I'd chalk it up to mostly not being worth pissing Mab off.

Besides which, the fallen is going to take control if the host starts acting erratically on too large a scale. Allowing a cooperating host like Tessa or Rosanna a few indulgences is one thing, but the Fallen have a purpose and they expect their hosts to mostly stick to acting on it.

One wonders how much of Nicodemus' boasting about being the dominant player and the Fallen following his lead is sheer self-deception.  Anduriel may be laughing his shadowy ass off whenever he hears Nicodemus go into that rant.

[Snark Knight]

One wonders how much of Nicodemus' boasting about being the dominant player and the Fallen following his lead is sheer self-deception.  Anduriel may be laughing his shadowy ass off whenever he hears Nicodemus go into that rant.

My sense is Anduriel is probably OK with Nicodemus calling shots over the other 29, because they're an exceptionally tight team in terms of overall purpose, and a badass host helps his standing among not uniformly trustworthy company. (Side note, I wonder whether Anduriel is the de facto head Denarian because he has a long-lived badass host who's been around since the beginning, or because his eavesdropping is that powerful? If Nic bought it, would Anduriel still be at the top of the heap as soon as he got a new host, or would another one move up?)

But the very act of Falling requires a certain psychology. If he's unwilling to follow orders from TWG himself, there's no way he's willing to the led by a mere mortal.

[jonas]

Side note, I wonder whether Anduriel is the de facto head Denarian because he has a long-lived badass host who's been around since the beginning, or because his eavesdropping is that powerful?

Everybody seems willing to follow a man/fallen with a plan. I'd bet Andurial's always been that Fallen, and has a tendency to influence his hosts in that direction I bet. Info being what he's best at it's what he has the most power in to offer. Huh.. Nic just became littlefinger in my mind the goatee, the short stature, it all works rofl.

[dspringer1]

I think you guys are confusing two separate things
1) The laws of magic apply to humans --- I do not think the White Council considers Denarians Human - at least while they are holding the coin.  Example - harry killed several with magic and no worries.   

2) The accords apply to supernatural nations.  the White Council has shown little interest in trying to enforce rules on other supernatural creatures so long as they leave White council members alone and do not rock the boat too badly.  The White Council has been in any number of wars with other supernatural nations.  The Accords does not prohibit this -- it just sets some rules to minimize the disruption that these wars cause to others non-combatants and minimizes the "total war" ethos of the combatants. 

[ebliss1]

What have we seen in the books that would have stirred the White Council to action toward the Knight of the Blackened Denarius? The Denarians generally seem to plan and execute their own individual agendas, with some occasionally grouping together (Like Nic, Deirdre, Tessa, etc). The one time we saw them go after humanity in any sort of direct way (Nic's Shroud plague), a WC wizard stopped them before it could get started. No need for official WC intervention there. When the Denarians went after The Archive, a WC Warden took action to recover the Accords Signatory (Ivy). Again, no direct WC action required.

The WC does not get all worked up over matters of fair play, free will, championing the little guy, etc. Their laws are just there to be enforced upon themselves and any plain-vanilla mortals who dabble in the magical arts. If the WC attempted to get involved in the Denarians using human Hosts, they'd have to go on the warpath against all Accords groups who prey on humans in any way (BC and WC for food, Denarians for Hosts, etc). If they attempt to dispute a Denarian Host's use of magic (like Thorned Namshiel), the Fallen in the Coin could rightly say "my use and knowledge of magic predates your species' existence, so you have no jurisdiction over me or my Host".

So unless the Denarians take direct action against the White Council, I really don't see these two bodies coming into direct conflict.

[Mr. Death]

I imagine if the White Council ever did see reason to take on the Denarians in a massed, official way, they would at best regard them as warlocks who are too far gone to save.

At worst (for the Denarians, anyway), they'd probably look at them as monsters so they can put them down with magic instead of having to hold back.

[Snark Knight]

So unless the Denarians take direct action against the White Council, I really don't see these two bodies coming into direct conflict.

Also, Tessa's opening pitch to Harry in SmF was rooted in offering him pretty good terms to avoid an incident with the Council. Harry figured she was lying, but most wizards would be pretty happy to take that deal - and she might have actually meant it with some random with less of a reputation for obstinacy.

[vultur]

Even before the buildup, the Wardens outnumbered them almost 7-1, and the Denarians are almost never one coherent unit. If the White Council really, seriously decided the Denarians had to go, they'd probably be able to do it, and they'd have a much better chance of securing allies than the Denarians.

IMO, it wouldn't even be really a war. In Small Favor, Harry describes Tessa as Council-level in a way that implies the other magic-using Denarians aren't. And a lot of the Denarians are just thugs, really terrifying to a mortal but not that much more impressive than the average Rampire. The only ones who I think would pose a real threat to halfway experienced Wardens, assuming equal numbers and barring situational factors heavily favoring the Denarian, are Thorned Namshiel, Tessa, Ursiel (depending on host), and Nic (who's a bit of a special case - assault rifle bullets impair him temporarily, and good evocations are way more destructive than that, so IMO Warden could defend themselves quite well, but they couldn't permanently kill him - unless they knew his weakness, which Harry does, so if he was fighting on the WC's side...)

EDIT: And that's assuming Eb didn't intervene with Blackstaff-stuff.

I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.

[Anubissama]

I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.

Because the Blackstaff doesn't officially exist, so his actions need to be framed in a way that gives the Council political deniability and coverage. Yes, every organisation has a wet works man, but most of them don't admit it since by definition it is a person who is there to break rules and agreements so having his existence be official would make your deals and agreements less valuable.

[Quantus]

IMO, it wouldn't even be really a war. In Small Favor, Harry describes Tessa as Council-level in a way that implies the other magic-using Denarians aren't. And a lot of the Denarians are just thugs, really terrifying to a mortal but not that much more impressive than the average Rampire. The only ones who I think would pose a real threat to halfway experienced Wardens, assuming equal numbers and barring situational factors heavily favoring the Denarian, are Thorned Namshiel, Tessa, Ursiel (depending on host), and Nic (who's a bit of a special case - assault rifle bullets impair him temporarily, and good evocations are way more destructive than that, so IMO Warden could defend themselves quite well, but they couldn't permanently kill him - unless they knew his weakness, which Harry does, so if he was fighting on the WC's side...)

EDIT: And that's assuming Eb didn't intervene with Blackstaff-stuff.

I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.

I dont think we should assume that Eb can bring Tunguska level's of Power/Energy to bear any time or place he wants.  Any more than Harry can whistle up a Zombie T-Rex or reallocate miles of the earth's gravity any time or place; he was able to pull it off in one instance, but with several lucky things (Ley Lines mostly) all coming together to make it possible.

[knnn]

Luccio mmmmm ed again. I heard a pencil scratching. “Dresden,” she said, “I cannot stress to you enough how vital it is that we avoid general hostilities, even with a relatively small power.”

I'd say this is a reasonable assessment.

[Rasins]

Another reason Eb may not be able to bring down satalites and the like is because he wants deniability.

"who me?  No way.  That satalite was in a decaying orbit anyway.  No one else noticed it I guess.  But I had nothing to do with it."

Where as if he did it many times in the war, it's entirely possible that folks would become aware he was doing it.

[Zaphodess]

I still wonder, once the WC was officially at war with the Rampires and thus they were fair game under the Accords, Eb didn't drop satellites/chunks of asteroid/earthquakes/etc on every Rampire stronghold? Being able to throw around Tunguska Events just seems too overwhelming - I don't see what anyone short of god/cosmic level powers could do to defend against it.

The Blackstaff doesn't give Eb more firepower, it helps him not go insane when he breaks the Laws of Magic. This is something Eb doesn't do lightly. Casaverde was a special case. They needed a response to Archangel and get rid of Ortega, even though it meant killing humans alongside. The White Council doesn't want to do that too often. They'd become complete hypocrites and maybe enrage other supernatural powers.

There's no reason to use the Blackstaff to fight Red Court Vampires. They are fair game for wizards.

[vultur]

I dont think we should assume that Eb can bring Tunguska level's of Power/Energy to bear any time or place he wants.  Any more than Harry can whistle up a Zombie T-Rex or reallocate miles of the earth's gravity any time or place; he was able to pull it off in one instance, but with several lucky things (Ley Lines mostly) all coming together to make it possible.

I doubt he can do it quickly, but he's done it at least 16 times (New Madrid, Krakatoa, Tunguska, Casaverde, "a dozen more at least") so he must know how to set it up, and the war with the Red Court lasted years.

The Blackstaff doesn't give Eb more firepower,

I dunno - it definitely keeps him from going crazy, but I'm not at all convinced that that's the only effect it has.

This is something Eb doesn't do lightly. Casaverde was a special case. They needed a response to Archangel and get rid of Ortega, even though it meant killing humans alongside.

True.

The attack they did in DB was even worse than the Archangel one, though - killing tons of Wardens in the hospital and coming very close to outright victory. That would seem to deserve an even larger response.