The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
Standard Warden Equipment?
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Zaphodess on July 14, 2017, 10:11:39 AM ---Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.
If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap. :P
--- End quote ---
Not so much that they know less about how to do it, as two factors:
1. Luccio and Morgan are already two of the toughest battle wizards on the planet; they've been doing the job for centuries and decades, so they have enough confidence in their own martial abilities and probably don't feel they need guns (though if I'm not mistaken, Luccio is described as having a revolver at one point).
2. Ramirez and the others are untested newbies, so the guns and grenades are a crutch. They're simple, reliable technologies that they can use without effort in situations where their comparatively untested magic might be a liability.
On encountering a room full of Reds, Luccio would just be able to instantly fry them with a precision blast of fire since she's been doing it forever and knows exactly what to do in the heat of the moment. Fresh-out-of-boot Warden Yoshimo doesn't have that experience, so she can fall back on throwing a grenade into the room instead of making an attempt at magic.
There's also longevity to consider. Bear with me while I talk some RPG stuff.
Magic taxes mental resources. In the game, this is tracked with the stress track, and the TL;DR is, your average PC wizard can sling four or five spells in a single conflict before they start giving themselves serious mental damage (think Harry burning himself out in Fool Moon). There's a couple ways around this for extended fights for the average PC wizard
1. Enchanted items like Harry's rings, which store a spell and don't tax the wizard to use -- these take up character creation resources that are limited and have a cost to increase
2. Guns and mundane equipment -- these are effectively "free"
Now, older, more powerful wizards have access to other tricks -- the Paranet Papers adds Mental Toughness powers which, among other things, adds a bunch to the stress track.
With the highest level of that power (which someone like the Merlin or Ebenezer might have), a wizard can cast 10 spells before they start running out of juice.
So that's the difference, really -- for longevity purposes, someone at lower levels like Ramirez is going to go with guns as a "cheap" way to last more rounds in a fight without giving himself a crippling migraine, while someone like Luccio has built up enough mental strength they can just keep casting even after their younger comrades are tapped.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 14, 2017, 02:27:56 PM ---Not so much that they know less about how to do it, as two factors:
1. Luccio and Morgan are already two of the toughest battle wizards on the planet; they've been doing the job for centuries and decades, so they have enough confidence in their own martial abilities and probably don't feel they need guns (though if I'm not mistaken, Luccio is described as having a revolver at one point).
2. Ramirez and the others are untested newbies, so the guns and grenades are a crutch. They're simple, reliable technologies that they can use without effort in situations where their comparatively untested magic might be a liability.
On encountering a room full of Reds, Luccio would just be able to instantly fry them with a precision blast of fire since she's been doing it forever and knows exactly what to do in the heat of the moment. Fresh-out-of-boot Warden Yoshimo doesn't have that experience, so she can fall back on throwing a grenade into the room instead of making an attempt at magic.
There's also longevity to consider. Bear with me while I talk some RPG stuff.
Magic taxes mental resources. In the game, this is tracked with the stress track, and the TL;DR is, your average PC wizard can sling four or five spells in a single conflict before they start giving themselves serious mental damage (think Harry burning himself out in Fool Moon). There's a couple ways around this for extended fights for the average PC wizard
1. Enchanted items like Harry's rings, which store a spell and don't tax the wizard to use -- these take up character creation resources that are limited and have a cost to increase
2. Guns and mundane equipment -- these are effectively "free"
Now, older, more powerful wizards have access to other tricks -- the Paranet Papers adds Mental Toughness powers which, among other things, adds a bunch to the stress track.
With the highest level of that power (which someone like the Merlin or Ebenezer might have), a wizard can cast 10 spells before they start running out of juice.
So that's the difference, really -- for longevity purposes, someone at lower levels like Ramirez is going to go with guns as a "cheap" way to last more rounds in a fight without giving himself a crippling migraine, while someone like Luccio has built up enough mental strength they can just keep casting even after their younger comrades are tapped.
--- End quote ---
I think I agree with most of this, but one caveat.
Guns in the DV are not a secondary option per-se. There are many tactical situations where their utility exceeds that of magic. I believe that Dresden straight up says this several times in the series in one way or another. Its also how someone like Murphy remains useful.
Firearms are generally much faster to engage than magic seemingly is. And as you said, they cost nothing to use. A magic spell is often times going to require alot of mental effort, and the same practitioner must also be making tactical decisions at the same time.
Bullets have the following advantages over "most" of the evocation we see in DV.
-Bullets reach the target faster. You can dodge a fireball, not a bullet.
-Bullets are more accurate for the above reason.
-Firearms are generally longer ranged.
-They do not give off magical warnings.
-They are faster to deploy and use. You can pull a trigger faster than you can do most magic.
Magic appears to have the following advantages:
-Raw destructive power. No bullet is going to blow a werewolf out the back of a police station and down the street.
-Defensive magic, like the duster or kinetic shieds.
-General magical utility spells. This category is so large I cant define it well. But think veils, lock picking, tracking spells etc.
Zaphodess:
Mr. Death, I completely agree with you, that's what I've been trying to say in fact. ;D
Shift8, your argument is only true to a degree. The Wardens fight beings who simply aren't affected that much by bullets (or maybe bombs). Think about Marcone's defenses in Even Hand. Guns and bombs are useful. Just not always. And there is a reason that older wizards seem to prefer other weapons. In the case of Luccio, we now know from "A fistful of Warlocks" that she used to carry guns and considered herself to be a good markswoman. I think it's likely that she still carries one (or even more), as might other old Wardens. They just don't seem to use them that much.
What the Council really should think about is not equipping the wizards like modern special forces. It's working together with modern special forces. The way Harry and Murphy do all the time. Harry does the wizarding - which means in practice that he provides the defense most of the time - and Murphy shoots.
Mr. Death:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on July 14, 2017, 11:21:55 PM ---I think I agree with most of this, but one caveat.
Guns in the DV are not a secondary option per-se. There are many tactical situations where their utility exceeds that of magic. I believe that Dresden straight up says this several times in the series in one way or another. Its also how someone like Murphy remains useful.
Firearms are generally much faster to engage than magic seemingly is. And as you said, they cost nothing to use. A magic spell is often times going to require alot of mental effort, and the same practitioner must also be making tactical decisions at the same time.
--- End quote ---
Generally, perhaps, but refer to Harry's inner monologue as the duel starts in White Night -- a White Court vampire might be able to pull and fire a gun pretty fast, but Harry has his shield up at the speed of thought and is able to outdraw him.
The most practiced wizards can do that kind of thing on instinct and reflex, and can do more than a gun can (like fire their magic in an arc over cover, for instance).
--- Quote ---Bullets have the following advantages over "most" of the evocation we see in DV.
-Bullets reach the target faster. You can dodge a fireball, not a bullet.
-Bullets are more accurate for the above reason.
-Firearms are generally longer ranged.
-They do not give off magical warnings.
-They are faster to deploy and use. You can pull a trigger faster than you can do most magic.
--- End quote ---
A fireball, perhaps. Other spells are nearly as instant -- like Harry's gravity spell. Yes, it took him a couple minutes to set up, but that's because Earth isn't one of his man elements. Someone who specialized in Earth magic could pull it off at the speed of thought.
--- Quote ---Magic appears to have the following advantages:
-Raw destructive power. No bullet is going to blow a werewolf out the back of a police station and down the street.
-Defensive magic, like the duster or kinetic shieds.
-General magical utility spells. This category is so large I cant define it well. But think veils, lock picking, tracking spells etc.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, bullets are good, but they literally only do one thing. Magic can do more or less anything the spell-slinger can come up with at the given time.
--- Quote from: Zaphodess on July 15, 2017, 10:02:19 AM ---Mr. Death, I completely agree with you, that's what I've been trying to say in fact. ;D
Shift8, your argument is only true to a degree. The Wardens fight beings who simply aren't affected that much by bullets (or maybe bombs). Think about Marcone's defenses in Even Hand. Guns and bombs are useful. Just not always. And there is a reason that older wizards seem to prefer other weapons. In the case of Luccio, we now know from "A fistful of Warlocks" that she used to carry guns and considered herself to be a good markswoman. I think it's likely that she still carries one (or even more), as might other old Wardens. They just don't seem to use them that much.
What the Council really should think about is not equipping the wizards like modern special forces. It's working together with modern special forces. The way Harry and Murphy do all the time. Harry does the wizarding - which means in practice that he provides the defense most of the time - and Murphy shoots.
--- End quote ---
While guns might not be able to do the kind of damage magic and superpowers can, they are at least potent as a symbol. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but one of the RPG books has a paragraph about how when guns come out, it sends the message that whoever's involved is willing to use lethal force and that gets everyone's attention, even the people who are effectively bulletproof.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: Mr. Death on July 16, 2017, 08:19:06 PM ---Generally, perhaps, but refer to Harry's inner monologue as the duel starts in White Night -- a White Court vampire might be able to pull and fire a gun pretty fast, but Harry has his shield up at the speed of thought and is able to outdraw him.
The most practiced wizards can do that kind of thing on instinct and reflex, and can do more than a gun can (like fire their magic in an arc over cover, for instance).
A fireball, perhaps. Other spells are nearly as instant -- like Harry's gravity spell. Yes, it took him a couple minutes to set up, but that's because Earth isn't one of his man elements. Someone who specialized in Earth magic could pull it off at the speed of thought.
Yeah, bullets are good, but they literally only do one thing. Magic can do more or less anything the spell-slinger can come up with at the given time.
While guns might not be able to do the kind of damage magic and superpowers can, they are at least potent as a symbol. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but one of the RPG books has a paragraph about how when guns come out, it sends the message that whoever's involved is willing to use lethal force and that gets everyone's attention, even the people who are effectively bulletproof.
--- End quote ---
That is why I "many" tactical situations where guns are outright superior. Many, not all. Harry outright states quite a few times in the books in one manner or another that firearms are more useful than magic in many circumstances. It is also made pretty clear that this utility is what keeps mortals generally relevant, both from the general manner the plot unfolds and direct character statement.
Also most spells are not instant, and when they are, they are probably more mentally straining. Not just magically tiring. While the travel time of a spell might be instant in some cases, the mental time might not be. Once evocated, who knows. The question is how much mental time and effort does it take to cast the evocation or other spell. Even most well practiced spell will have a minimum time that cannot be exceeded. A gun is just a trigger pull. Sure, there might be some spells that are faster too, this dynamic might cut both ways depending. But its pretty clear from the combat in the books which way the pendulum seems to swing for most practitioners and most spells. Its not only the wizards that make this evident, but also their enemies, whose bulk use of firearms allows them to remain relevant and dangerous.
Just keep in mind the thing Harry said was most dangerous to him was sniper.
Quite frankly one of the best things about the DV is that technology is still quite relevant while magic remains quite powerful as well. Its what makes the DV fun for me. Magic + Guns. Yeah!
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