New Blackstaff discussion

[Rasins]

They can kill with magic because they act in compliance with the balance, they don't break free will. Mortal magic taints when it breaks cosmic laws tied to freedom of will. Pretty sure the whole point of the WK is to act as a buffer for Mab, to keep HER from getting the taint. By giving the job of violating free will to her disposable subordinate. Also, when she keeps him in the bullpen too long highjinx start up pretty steadily in the winter court.

Huh?

Lea did some (presumably illusion-based) killing in GS while taking turns as the Rag Lady.  Also likely had some collateral damage during Changes, but that's just conjecture.

I thought that the killings were speculated to have been committed by Leah, but we really don't know.

[jonas]

Huh?

I thought that the killings were speculated to have been committed by Leah, but we really don't know.

Gotta reread SK man. They can't force you but they can glamour you, they can make deals, they can kill mortals whom have chosen to get involved in the courts affairs or otherwise provoke them. Lea basically went about teaching Molly how to inspire fear without actually violating the laws themselves, by doing precisely what the Sidhe have done all along.

[Mr. Death]

Gotta reread SK man. They can't force you but they can glamour you, they can make deals, they can kill mortals whom have chosen to get involved in the courts affairs or otherwise provoke them. Lea basically went about teaching Molly how to inspire fear without actually violating the laws themselves, by doing precisely what the Sidhe have done all along.

I think it's only the queens that can't kill unaffiliated mortals -- nothing has been stopping trolls from eating children or the Redcap from murdering travelers.

So long as you're not actually a queen, you're free to kill whoever you want.

[Rasins]

Gotta reread SK man. They can't force you but they can glamour you, they can make deals, they can kill mortals whom have chosen to get involved in the courts affairs or otherwise provoke them. Lea basically went about teaching Molly how to inspire fear without actually violating the laws themselves, by doing precisely what the Sidhe have done all along.

Sorry Jonas, but you are applying a "rule" to all of the Sidhe that doesn't apply.

Only the Queens cannot kill without a connection to the courts.  That's why they have a WK.

The rest of the Sidhe can kill as they like.  Look at the Fetches or the Redcap.  But the real question is if they use magic (not just glamour on themselves) to kill with, are they tainted.  We don't have any examples of it yet, so we really don't know.

[Mr. Death]

Sorry Jonas, but you are applying a "rule" to all of the Sidhe that doesn't apply.

Only the Queens cannot kill without a connection to the courts.  That's why they have a WK.

The rest of the Sidhe can kill as they like.  Look at the Fetches or the Redcap.  But the real question is if they use magic (not just glamour on themselves) to kill with, are they tainted.  We don't have any examples of it yet, so we really don't know.

The way I've always seen it, the Laws of Magic apply to mortals only, going both ways. I mean, Leah turns everyone into dogs without a problem and she's throwing around deadly magic without a care in the world in Changes.

It's got to do with free will and one's nature. A human's nature is changeable -- a fae's isn't. They're beholden entirely to their nature, so if they use magic to kill, then it's already in their nature to do so.

[jonas]

I think it's only the queens that can't kill unaffiliated mortals -- nothing has been stopping trolls from eating children or the Redcap from murdering travelers.

So long as you're not actually a queen, you're free to kill whoever you want.

Sidhe, say it with me Sidhe. Not fae or Faerie. If you notice Lea can't just do whatever she wants either. Harry goes out of his way to explain why she can get to him multiple times. Leah 'lawyered' the CH hounds as helping to complete the quest. Don't pretend to know about the redcaps situation.
*yea again, see Leahnansidhe

[Rasins]

The way I've always seen it, the Laws of Magic apply to mortals only, going both ways. I mean, Leah turns everyone into dogs without a problem and she's throwing around deadly magic without a care in the world in Changes.

It's got to do with free will and one's nature. A human's nature is changeable -- a fae's isn't. They're beholden entirely to their nature, so if they use magic to kill, then it's already in their nature to do so.

The way I've always seen it, the Laws of Magic apply to mortals only, going both ways. I mean, Leah turns everyone into dogs without a problem and she's throwing around deadly magic without a care in the world in Changes.

It's got to do with free will and one's nature. A human's nature is changeable -- a fae's isn't. They're beholden entirely to their nature, so if they use magic to kill, then it's already in their nature to do so.

True, but supposedly the taint drives one mad, like the Korean boy.  With the Leasidhe, how would you know she'd gone mad?

[Mr. Death]

Sidhe, say it with me Sidhe. Not fae or Faerie. If you notice Lea can't just do whatever she wants either. Harry goes out of his way to explain why she can get to him multiple times. Leah 'lawyered' the CH hounds as helping to complete the quest. Don't pretend to know about the redcaps situation.
*yea again, see Leahnansidhe

Harry is talking about things like how she can control or heal him because they're connected. If she just wanted him dead, there's nothing stopping her from just stabbing him.

Check the sequence in Changes: Lea never "lawyers" anything. She just does it. Then when she changes them back, she freely offers to turn any of them back if they want.

And what do you mean "don't pretend to know"? Harry says outright what the Redcap does and the Redcap confirms it. That's the myth of the Redcap in the first place -- that it murders people.

[jonas]

Harry is talking about things like how she can control or heal him because they're connected. If she just wanted him dead, there's nothing stopping her from just stabbing him.

Now... are we talking killing with magic or not? Either way once you've made connections with the Sidhe your no longer 'off the board' of their games.

Check the sequence in Changes: Lea never "lawyers" anything. She just does it. Then when she changes them back, she freely offers to turn any of them back if they want.

check it again

Godmother. I hope you have some way to get us to the temple a little more swiftly?

He gave her an excuse to do something she always wanted to and then she laughs about it. If they give her permission before she changes them back how does that break, well, anything at all?

And what do you mean "don't pretend to know"? Harry says outright what the Redcap does and the Redcap confirms it. That's the myth of the Redcap in the first place -- that it murders people.

again... thought we were mainly talking about magic, as Redcap kills up close and personal. Now prove that he's ever killed at least one completely random person without them being connected to the courts or duped into giving him an opening in some way? Since it's not in the books, I won't pretend to know how he does what he does

[Mr. Death]

The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.

Things are getting muddled here -- point is, nobody in the whole series ever brings up anything Faeries do -- killing, transforming, mind-screwing -- as being related to or falling under the Laws of Magic. I honestly thought it was simply a given that they weren't affected by the taint because nobody in the world seems to care.

[jonas]

The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.

Things are getting muddled here -- point is, nobody in the whole series ever brings up anything Faeries do -- killing, transforming, mind-screwing -- as being related to or falling under the Laws of Magic. I honestly thought it was simply a given that they weren't affected by the taint because nobody in the world seems to care.

Hold on, quantus just quoted the pertinent woj in another thread, let me go try to jack it.

The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks.

And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.

Which exist.  It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part.

Jim
As for violating the laws of magic themselves turning you good or evil, well.    There's something to be said on either side of the argument, in the strictest sense, though one side of the argument is definitely less incorrect than the other.  But it's going to take me several more books to lay it out, so there's no sense in ruining the fun.

the laws of magic have nothing to do with permission, the actuality behind them does. every law can be broken down into why it violates free will except for possibly contacting outsiders, but that's still bad juju.
Where as you took it at a given... I take NOTHING at a given, especially in the Dresden files
It's cool, I have lots of crazy ideas(which don't make them wrong or right lol). Hope to discuss them more with you.

[LordDresden2]

It might also tell Mother Winter where her missing walking stick is -- with someone she can apparently summon back to her home.

I've noted before that it strikes me as very peculiar if Mother Winter doesn't know where it is.  I might could believe that some quirk of Faerie law keeps from acting on the knowledge, but how likely is it, really, that the Council could keep Mother Winter in the dark for centuries on end, about something so fundamental to her?

[LordDresden2]

The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.

And note that doing so screwed with her head afterward, too.  Not nearly as bad as it would have if she'd done it against his will, not as bad as when she messed with Nelson and Rosie, but it left some damage even so.

We don't know if they gain a taint when they kill with magic.  The only one I remember doing anything like that was Aurora, and she didn't live very long after attempting it.

We can't be sure, but my guess is that it's a Free Will issue.  A fae may choose to kill or not kill, but it'll do so accordance with its nature either way, because it doesn't have the option of doing anything else.  Humans (including I'm pretty sure Bigfoot, the White Vampires, etc) are different.

[Snark Knight]

The Laws of Magic have nothing to do with permission. Harry gave Molly permission to muck with his mind, and it was still a violation of the law.

I'm not at all sure I agree with that. The law is against "invading" someone's mind - that doesn't sound like a prohibition on mind magic done with consent. LtW's efforts to help heal the damage Peabody did to the younger personnel would fall under a similar situation. Also, for that matter, Molly and Harry's sparring sessions about trying to plant an idea in each other's head, which they apparently did a considerable amount of, would also be prohibited under the interpretation that consent doesn't negate the violation of the 'invade' law.

[LordDresden2]

I'm not at all sure I agree with that. The law is against "invading" someone's mind - that doesn't sound like a prohibition on mind magic done with consent. LtW's efforts to help heal the damage Peabody did to the younger personnel would fall under a similar situation. Also, for that matter, Molly and Harry's sparring sessions about trying to plant an idea in each other's head, which they apparently did a considerable amount of, would also be prohibited under the interpretation that consent doesn't negate the violation of the 'invade' law.

Almost all of the Laws have a grey area around them, where some Wizards are allowed and others are not, sometimes officially (the Wardens and the Gatekeeper, for ex, can study Outsider knowledge a little more than others, from necessity), sometimes unofficial (politics and custom).

Planting an idea in someone else's head, with permission, doesn't violate the Third Law because it doesn't tell you anything about what they're thinking or knowing, but it presses against the edges of the Fourth Law.  In that case it's probably just this side of the line because nobody's really being 'forced' to do anything or think anything...quite.  But it is right at the edge.

Some types of illusion magic are mentioned to press against the edges of the Fourth Law, while remaining technically legal.  The Council specifically allows the use of compulsory 'sleep' as a healing tool, though I suspect they expect it to be done sparingly and only with serious reason.

But 'permission' only goes so far.  Helping someone suicide with magic, for ex, would be 'killing with permission', but to do so directly would surely violate the First Law.  For that matter, helping Harry do what he did memory-wise means that Molly was at the edge of violating the First Law as well as actually violating the Fourth.

But those grey areas are just that, grey areas.  Some people may be allowed to get away with entering them where others are not.  For ex, remember that Charity told Harry that Gregory had them practicing magic that was at, as she put it, 'the crumbling edges' of the Laws.  Not quite violating them, but close enough that the Wardens might take some kind of steps even so.  A full Council member might be allowed to get closer to that 'crumbling edge' than a minor practitioner...or might sometimes be expected to stay further back.  Politics is a fact of life.