The Dresden Files > DF Books
Question about the first law
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on July 13, 2017, 12:57:46 AM ---Surely there is some kind of relatively easy defense against this? As you say, this would be OP as hell. But it would in fact be so OP that I think the laws would almost be irrelevant. I mean, good luck enforcing that. How would you even know who the culprit was? And if the Wardens ever made a thing of this, I imagine the culprit could just off the entire WC easy as pie.
There must be some kind of counter to this that makes it less death note like. The alternative is a world of death note holders. Which it would be pretty pointless to make illegal since it would be so easy to do.
Edit: Plus if this were that easy then the Black Staff would just death note all the WC's enemies. No need for wardens etc. Just death note Nicodemus, Ortega, etc etc. Clearly there hard limits to said magic that make it so difficult its not practical. Otherwise we would not have any of the fighting we have in the books. It would just people people racing to theumaturgy each other out of existence.
--- End quote ---
There's still the requirement of a Link, which keep you from just Offing random political figures, but beyond that Nope, you're basically just screwed. Harry says as much in CD, to the shock of his comrades:
(click to show/hide)
--- Quote --- “If they’ve got my blood and can use it, I’m fucked and that’s that. But until that happens, I’m going to assume that I still have a chance and proceed as if I do.”
There was a silence then, and I realized that both [Mook] and [Thug] were just staring at me.
“What? Magic is dangerous stuff, guys,” I said.
“Yeah, for all of us,” [Mook] said, “but, Harry, you’re . . .”
“What? Bulletproof?” I shook my head. “Magic is like the rest of life. It doesn’t matter how much a guy can bench-press, or if he can break trees with his hands. You put a bullet through his brain, he dies. I’m pretty good at figuring out where to stand so as to avoid that bullet, and I can shoot back a lot better than most people—but I’m just as vulnerable as everybody else.”
--- End quote ---
Now dont get me wrong, Wards are still a Thing, and Defenses Do exist especially in the Oldest strongholds like Edinburgh (which is what the CI curse was sized to take on). Harry probably could have sat in a Circle in the Svart's compound and actually been entirely Fine; but that would have immobilized him and taken him entirely Out of Play.
And besides, that is when you're talking about two sides who both Know what's actually going on, and they have the time and resources (generations) to build such a Bunker. This tangent was based on the statement that the First Law is entirely arbitrary because Mundane weapons are equally effective and so it makes no sense to regulate just one. A Black Hat Thaumaturgist could wreck absolute nightmarish havoc on the general population.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 13, 2017, 01:09:36 PM ---There's still the requirement of a Link, which keep you from just Offing random political figures, but beyond that Nope, you're basically just screwed. Harry says as much in CD, to the shock of his comrades:
(click to show/hide)
Now dont get me wrong, Wards are still a Thing, and Defenses Do exist especially in the Oldest strongholds like Edinburgh (which is what the CI curse was sized to take on). Harry probably could have sat in a Circle in the Svart's compound and actually been entirely Fine; but that would have immobilized him and taken him entirely Out of Play.
And besides, that is when you're talking about two sides who both Know what's actually going on, and they have the time and resources (generations) to build such a Bunker. This tangent was based on the statement that the First Law is entirely arbitrary because Mundane weapons are equally effective and so it makes no sense to regulate just one. A Black Hat Thaumaturgist could wreck absolute nightmarish havoc on the general population.
--- End quote ---
I still think that makes the law pointless. The aforementioned power is so OP that making illegal is essentially moot. Not to mention that the ethical stand point is still based on who and why its used. No should care if you kill off Nicodemus with it. And you cant stop people from using it for wrong purposes.
That being said that is a totally broken bit of magic that needs to be nerfed in some manner officially. Its so powerful that it literally makes no sense whatsoever why the entire book series has taken place as it has. If all you need is someones blood or hair etc, then its worth whatever effort and patience are required considering the massive payoff. There is basically almost no motive to do anything otherwise. Especially since were talking about people with huge resources and power, if you really wanted to get someones DNA, it wouldnt be that hard.
Getting any persons hair or blood would be child's play. It sounds hard but it really wouldnt be, especially considering the payoff. It would be as simple as breaking into Dresden's car and looking for a loose hair. Etc. And thats just conventional means. Adding other magic to the mix makes it even easier.
-Follow dresden to where he gets his hair cut....
-Some tiny magical creature or magically possessed animal (like a mosquito....) takes it.
-Rummage his trash for things...like a straw or cup that has been used.
-Steal his blood from a hospital.
-Any person who ever wounded Dresden or another other person ever in combat with a blade....
I mean good greif this doesnt take a whole lot of imagination. If you wanted to do this, you could.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on July 13, 2017, 02:45:33 PM ---I still think that makes the law pointless. The aforementioned power is so OP that making illegal is essentially moot. Not to mention that the ethical stand point is still based on who and why its used. No should care if you kill off Nicodemus with it. And you cant stop people from using it for wrong purposes.
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Sure you can. With Wardens and Sharp swords. Thats rather the whole Point of the Laws in the first place, or the concept of Enforcement.
Shift8:
--- Quote from: Quantus on July 13, 2017, 07:08:57 PM ---Sure you can. With Wardens and Sharp swords. Thats rather the whole Point of the Laws in the first place, or the concept of Enforcement.
--- End quote ---
The problem would be the same issue you would have with something like a death note: you'd have almost no way of finding out who dun it. Plus a truly industrious practitioner would just get a large number of the WC's DNA before attacking their real target and off the WC all at once. Surprising this hasn't happened already tbh. Youd think that a bunch of dudes centuries old would have made an enemy by now who would do this. Hell, imagine what would happen if you simply told the WC you had all their blood or something? Just my humble opinion but I really think Jim needs to add something to the story that explains why this hasn't happened already. Some kind of hard counter that is easy to implement or exists all the time. But that is just my two cents.
Anubissama:
I think it is also worth mentioning that the rituals we are talking about are rather complicated high-level magic, you don't just take a photo of somebody sit in a circle and stare daggers at the picture. It's not like any Tom, Dick, and Harry turned Warlock can just go and whip them out.
They usually require White Council level of skill, power, and training. Which in itself would minimise the pool of suspect would you investigate a thaumaturgy related murder. Not to mention that there are always ways to reduce the suspect pool further. Black Magic leaves traces you can find, physical distance is also a factor in this spells, so it's not like you could literally kill someone who is Hawai from Moscow, the energy expenditure would be too great. You have to believe you have a right to kill that person so you most likely know them and hold a personal grudge against them that even a vanilla investigation might find out.
The only person we have seen use that kind of thaumaturgy outside the WC was Victor Sells, and he was as it later turned out sponsored and coached by the Red Court or someone from the Circle. It's not something the average warlock will get his hands on, and even if, it is even lees likely they will have the juice to pull it off. Sells had to wait for thunderstorms to roll in, while having fresh blood, skin, and hair of his victims, the perfect thaumaturgical channel, despite having the closest a Warlock can hope for in actual magical training.
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