The Dresden Files > DF Books
Question about the first law
Shift8:
--- Quote from: Rasins on July 05, 2017, 03:36:05 PM ---Shift8,
If magic is a power source that has an "intelligence", if not conscience, then it is entirely possible that using that power contrary to said source's purposes would have negative consequences.
For instance, and I'm NOT espousing this particular scenario but it fits.
If all magic comes from TWG, and TWG says it's for creation and building, but someone uses it for nefarious purposes, it's entirely possible that TWG ordained that anyone who uses it for purposes other than Building and Creation would suffer.
Thus anyone who uses magic would have nasty consequences for breaking the law, while using mundane means would not have said consequences.
--- End quote ---
Magic is not intelligent. Its a force, like gravity. IIRC the Dresden files is pretty clear about the idea that magic functions like physics, IIRC Jim has even said similar thing in some of his interviews and talks. Also IIRC the books description so far of why people who use magic contrary to the laws being bad is that they are adversely affected by the intent they had to use to create the magic.....not some esoteric rebound effect.
It has also been implied in the above WOJ that the killing of certain kinds of magical creatures would sensibly be just as bad as killing humans. In the course of these 16 books, Dresden and his colleagues have kill ALOT of people and non-people who sentient enough to warrant consideration. Yet.....none of them have done made yet.
Id go into greater detail of who as killed whom and how many, especially a certain specific character who is not Dresden, but this is not the DF spoilers region.
All of the above aside, having magic being some kind of intelligent force with a apparently completely illogical system of cause and effect would be a massive cop-out plot device.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on July 05, 2017, 08:21:05 PM ---Magic is not intelligent. Its a force, like gravity. IIRC the Dresden files is pretty clear about the idea that magic functions like physics, IIRC Jim has even said similar thing in some of his interviews and talks.
--- End quote ---
Weeeell...Sort of. He's very specific about that being the mindest Harry was taught, but is also always quick to note that he's on one end of a full spectrum, and that other Wizards often involve more Religion/Faith (the stereotypical Wiccan "witch" probably being the most common example).
--- Quote ---Also IIRC the books description so far of why people who use magic contrary to the laws being bad is that they are adversely affected by the intent they had to use to create the magic.....not some esoteric rebound effect.
--- End quote ---
Another "Well Sort of". He's very specific that it's an actual metaphysical twisting that is distinct and independent from the normal (and still very present) emotional/psychological effects, and that it is qualitatively different to Kill with a fireball than it is to Kill with a
Also worth noting that, regardless of the relative level of "intelligence" of Magic as a whole, Per WOJ the Dredsen universe is one that very much has an Absolute Good and Evil, innately present on the cosmic level and independent of all the normal Subjectivity arguments. Since it's been established (per WOJ) that powerful objects (will often) gain some sort of low-level awareness (The Outer Gates and the Blackstaff are both examples). So even if Magic is not an actual Aware Intelligence like a god-figure might me, they may still have a certain amount of innate guiding...mechanism isnt the right word, but I dont have a better one. I compare it to the Queens Mantles, they require a Host which provides the actual Awareness of the being, but the Mantle itself has enough decision-making capability to identify it's next host, as well as override the Will of the host when it feels the need to protect itself or its purpose.
jonas:
Gotta wonder though, those things gained an intelligence factor after being used by able minds/souls/spirits or otherwise empowered but, could the opposite be true of magic? Could you say, take Mab's power and destroy utterly, cast her into oblivion but, allow the energy, already a part of this world to roam free as an elemental force? after all, there had to be air and darkness before there was a queen of?
Shift8:
[quote author=Quantus link=topic=49781.msg2282554#msg2282554 date=1499371389
Also worth noting that, regardless of the relative level of "intelligence" of Magic as a whole, Per WOJ the Dredsen universe is one that very much has an Absolute Good and Evil, innately present on the cosmic level and independent of all the normal Subjectivity arguments. Since it's been established (per WOJ) that powerful objects (will often) gain some sort of low-level awareness (The Outer Gates and the Blackstaff are both examples). So even if Magic is not an actual Aware Intelligence like a god-figure might me, they may still have a certain amount of innate guiding...mechanism isnt the right word, but I dont have a better one. I compare it to the Queens Mantles, they require a Host which provides the actual Awareness of the being, but the Mantle itself has enough decision-making capability to identify it's next host, as well as override the Will of the host when it feels the need to protect itself or its purpose.
[/quote]
I think there is alot of room for interpretation here. I would argue that the Dresden verse has good and evil in the same sense that the real world has real good and evil. Regardless of fictional universe or no, Good and Evil would be manifestations of logic: not forces that exist independent of reason. I think this is totally in line with the alluded WOJ, especially since I think Jim was simply positing that he views good and evil as real things. Not that the DV has some separate standard for morality.
As for objects, I think we need to define what we mean be intelligence. A computer AI has a certain level of intellect, in the sense that it reacts in a programmed manner to various stimuli. But my computer does not have self-aware free will. I view the "actions" of things like the black staff simply as programming that appears to be "intelligent." Same with the Mantles. So far as I can tell from the series, the mantles are just set-in-place forces that influence the possessor. Based on certain dialogues I will not delve into much since this is the non-spoilers section, I would argue strongly that events at the end of ghost story IIRC implied heavily that the Mantles do not have the power to strip free will from the user. Although as I read this back to myself I am thinking we are on the same page actually? (so far as objects I mean)
I think the idea that is clogging this conversation is the debate between whether morality in the DV is simply a consequence of logic or not. It seems to me that the opposite opinion implies that good and evil in the Dresdenverse are like weather events. However I think these definitions are incompatible. Ethics is supposed to describe how a being is supposed to act. If it is a force like gravity, then defining it as Good or Evil would render the entire definition pointless.
ITheHellAmFan:
--- Quote from: Shift8 on July 06, 2017, 08:39:33 PM ---I think the idea that is clogging this conversation is the debate between whether morality in the DV is simply a consequence of logic or not. It seems to me that the opposite opinion implies that good and evil in the Dresdenverse are like weather events. However I think these definitions are incompatible. Ethics is supposed to describe how a being is supposed to act. If it is a force like gravity, then defining it as Good or Evil would render the entire definition pointless.
--- End quote ---
Until you realize that defining Good and Evil, morality, ethics, etc. in such a manner is an incredibly common trope in fantasy. One need look no farther than Moorecock or Anderson's view of Law and Chaos (and all the things derived from it, including but not limited to Alignment in D&D and the Shards in Sanderson's Cosmere works) to see how this works. Just replace Law with Good and Chaos with Evil, and you'll get a template for how such things exist metaphysically apart from human reason in the DV. The real thing clogging the discussion is people getting hung up on the terms Good and Evil and insisting they must adhere completely to various philosophical arguments (that is insisting that they are derived entirely from logic) as opposed to realizing that in the DV at least, that is not the case, and as Quantus stated and as confirmed by WoJ, they do exist as objective metaphysical forces related to but ultimately distinct from mere human ethics.
If you think that is illogical or unbelieveable, then sorry, but the entire Dresdenverse is illogical and unbelievable then.
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