The Dresden Files > DF Spoilers
What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)
wyltok:
Not sure if Shiro is a Saint, but he definitely got the "Died a Martyr" Achievement (not sure what the gamer score for that is).
Another possible way of identifying a Saint: when Father Forthill's life was at risk during Ghost Story, an angel was on stand by to protect his soul and make sure he made it to his destination. This strongly suggests he would qualify as a proper conduit for a Miracle, should the need arise.
Quantus:
--- Quote from: Mira on June 19, 2017, 02:43:53 PM ---Yes, I agree that the term "saint" has to be applied with more discretion, however I disagree about what you are saying about the holy men who attain the title or state of Buddha..
--- End quote ---
Ill bite, why?
--- Quote from: Mira on June 19, 2017, 02:43:53 PM ---Then just what are you saying? With in the Dresden universe, keeping to that for a moment, we've known five Holy Sword holders, Shiro, Sanya, Murphy, Michael, and the latest, Butters, by your definition of sainthood, of these five, who is likely to be one? Since he is the only one of the ones we've known that has died, do you think Shiro will be declared one or is an undeclared one?
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On that Im still stuck at the same place I was at the beginning, which is that we seem to have a WOJ that says a Knight of the Cross and a Saint are both separate types of living champions. So being a Knight alone is not enough (or rather not the particular requirement), despite that seeming the most likely/obvious answer. And the historic definition of Saint is largely out as well, as it originated with Martyrs, specifically, and had always been a Postmortem honor.
As far as those five go, I' say that Michael is Special even among Knights (and WOJ implies that Amoracchius Wielders are a rarer breed anyway), he was able to wield two swords simultaneously, He is the only Knight that I think would qualify as a True Believer, he was Trusted with an Archangel's Grace that time. Shiro is definitely a 'Martyr' by the normal definition, but so far Martyr doesnt have a specific DF usages or definition, so I dont know what qualitative difference it might have with Saint other than the obvious "Saints are still Alive" bit.
wyltok:
And Forthill? Like I said, there's an Angel ready to escort his soul (and willing to face off against Lucifer for it, if necessary), should he die, and he's served as a conduit for Divine Intervention in the past. Harry uses him as a supplier of Holy Water capable of hurting Blampires.
Do you think he could lead a mob to take out an Elder of the Black Court?
Quantus:
--- Quote from: wyltok on June 19, 2017, 06:07:21 PM ---And Forthill? Like I said, there's an Angel ready to escort his soul (and willing to face off against Lucifer for it, if necessary), should he die, and he's served as a conduit for Divine Intervention in the past. Harry uses him as a supplier of Holy Water capable of hurting Blampires.
Do you think he could lead a mob to take out an Elder of the Black Court?
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There's an angel ready to escort his soul, sure, but we have no idea how common a thing that is (Some tropes have everyone getting such a psychopomp, does the Almighty have limited staffing?). Meanwhile Father Forthill has not ever shown any actual supernatural Power beyond havng his car break down on him or vaguely sensing the presence of a ghost (Unless you count making Holy Water which any priest can do). I think it's a huge leap to say he can act as a Conduit of Divine Intervention when he's never so much as made a cross glow that I recall (which btw wouldnt be enough either, to me).
wyltok:
--- Quote from: Quantus on June 19, 2017, 06:17:00 PM ---There's an angel ready to escort his soul, sure, but we have no idea how common a thing that is (Some tropes have everyone getting such a psychopomp, does the Almighty have limited staffing?).
--- End quote ---
Harry didn't get an angel. He got a detective, instead. There were other deaths in Ghost Story (and other near-death moments), and only Forthill had his own escort loafing around where Dresden could see (this is where I would expect neurovore to jump in and point out that there's no reason to assume angels have to be visible to Dresden, and that this angel was possibly only visible because Mr. Sunshine wanted that conversation to happen).
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